Ok so here goes. I am getting impatient. I have been around this game since late 2006. Who am I? I am just one guy like some of you on this forum and I expect to get criticized for this by others on this forum. But here goes.
Why am I impatient about this game?
1. Website is poorly updated. It should at least be updated with the pics and vids from Facebook. Give me access to the site and I`ll do it. What about the people who don`t have or don`t like "Facebook" Dave?
2. While Dave is cool I am honestly getting tired of hearing about "pants" and "polishing up this and that". How many times do we have to hear about "we are going to be getting this game out soon". Since 2002-2003??? C`mon... TNA Impact wasn`t obviously the best game in the world but it got released in like 2 years.
3. No release date but a deadline that is confidential.
4. We used to get some good pictures and videos and now we don`t seem to get them anymore if hardly at all.
5. All this future stuff keeps getting talked about and possibly added but that`s all it seems to be is talk. Actions speak louder than words. You say this new lead programmer is way ahead of his work well... instead of wanting to add shinier stuff and little bowes/ties and ribbons, just PLEASE get the game out to us! Show us!
P.S. I know Dave owes us nothing and if I don`t like it I should just get off the board. But this is my rant. How does everyone else feel? Thoughts?
[quote][cite] MG:[/cite]Um... Shut up. Wait and have a life and time will pass fast. Not trying to harsh but come on you making my time on this board just wack[/quote]
I will shut up but please learn proper english! :)
Actually, they owe us everything. I have a ton of respect for Dave, have spoken to him quite a few times, have paid for the game about a year or so ago now, but the capitalist in me knows one thing: the market rules the product. If we do not buy the product, there is no money or profits to be had. While the game was started as Dave's filling that void in a quality wrestling title, it's no longer "his" dream game, but it's a product that he offered for sale. Once he offered it for sale/up for financial investors, he stopped making it "his" and made it "ours." The "demands" of Ichr is nothing outrageous, and in fact, as a paying customer we are owed that much.
The indie game development scene has only one major thing over big budget/commercial games, and that's the community. Games like Spore, Wolfenstein, Madden, etc. will have the marketing power to sell millions even if they don't meet expectations, but lower budget games like indie titles NEED the community for input, word-of-mouth, and funds. By not meeting their demands, you are isolating them, and when you isolate them, you lose them.
This sounds cold, harsh, and demanding because it is. Once I paid my money for Uprising, Uprising became a product that I should receive in or at least be given 100% information/updates on. This concept that "they owe us nothing" is laughably ridiculous. Have you ever pre-ordered a console or big budget game that didn't live to expectations and either sold it or returned it and left the product to die because it didn't meet your satisfaction? The boss of the producer is, and always will be, the consumer.
They have a responsibility to deliver their product that you paid for. But, you paid for it without having an agreed upon deadline. Their duty is to deliver the title. Thats it.
[quote][cite] sirdingus:[/cite]They have a responsibility to deliver their product that you paid for. But, you paid for it without having an agreed upon deadline. Their duty is to deliver the title. Thats it.[/quote]
How long does it take to make a wrestling game? I`ve never made one myself but a studio (THQ) (Midway) with a team it can take anywhere from 1-2 years anyway, so once again if this game was created in like 2002-3003. Why the holdup, why so long? As I have stated before I`m sure I don`t understand everything but nonetheless look at Mat Dickie he was just a one man team and his wrestling games came out every couple of years. Let`s be realistic here!
As far as accepting pre-orders for the game , no we didn`t get an actual release date... this is true but their duty is to deliver the title but if we have to wait another 10 years for this game it may wind up like Gun`s N Roses`s long awaited album "Chinese Democracy" which noone really seemed to cared about when it finally did come out.
Actually, when I signed up Dave said Uprising would be out by the following month in a demo form. That never happened.
Regardless, as paying customers, it's implied the product will arrive in a timely face by taking pre-orders. Also, as paying customers, we have the right to complain as much as we want.
Complain all you want, just saying it comes off as childish when you consider everything.
THQ has a very large team. Wishbone has a small team. THQ has a large budget. Wishbone has a small budget. THQ had a wealth of experience. Wishbone has yet to release one game. THQ had an engine that they could keep recycling. Wishbone essentially built their own.
I too want the game now, but I know that is not realistic. I rather have them take their time, release a quality product and have the opportunity to make more than rush this one out and go out of business
I honestly can't say I care because I addressed that in my argument: indie companies have the benefit of the community being with them during development. Give us a beta to test, give us mods to test, give us SOMETHING to be apart of the process. Look up the game "Love" sometime. It is single-handedly the best example of a great indie developer. Eskil decided he wanted to create something that no one else has and he is nearly done the game. It's a procedurally generated game that allows the players a fully evolving game every time they play. What has Eskil done differently than Wishbone? As soon as the game was in Alpha, he released a version to test machines. Then, he began to allow players on the servers. Since the servers weren't free, he asked a small fee to play and because he was constantly asking for help (daily updates in addition to expanding the game constantly), people were glad to assist him.
[quote][cite] sirdingus:[/cite]Complain all you want, just saying it comes off as childish when you consider everything.
THQ has a very large team. Wishbone has a small team. THQ has a large budget. Wishbone has a small budget. THQ had a wealth of experience. Wishbone has yet to release one game. THQ had an engine that they could keep recycling. Wishbone essentially built their own.
I too want the game now, but I know that is not realistic. I rather have them take their time, release a quality product and have the opportunity to make more than rush this one out and go out of business[/quote]
LOL. Childish? Why because all of us have been waiting for this game to come out for so long? Dave estimated a Christmas release. Didn`t happen! Go ahead, (Insert excuse(s) here.
How big is Mat Dickie`s team? Oh!!! Wait a minute he doesn`t have one it was just him. I also don`t think he had/has a large budget either. You seem to keep making excuses sirdingus. You go with that because it is your prerogative. I`m tired of arguing out the logistics with you and the others making excuses for why this game hasn`t come out yet. I`m not saying your wrong or your not entitled to your own opinion, don`t get me wrong but I have a right to express myself/my feelings and my opinions about the game.
Take their time??? You gotta be kidding me! That has been what this game seems to be all about.
If and when Dave gets this. I got 3 simple words for you Dave: "Prove me wrong"! Let me actually correct that...... prove us (the fans) wrong and get "Uprising" out to us! I`m gonna honestly be less active on this board come Feb. So if some of you don`t like me, don`t worry I won`t be around that much, unless of course the game gets released. Oh and that was not an order towards you Dave, or demand it is a (diehard, oldschool wrestling game fan) request from one wrestling game fan to another that I`m sure most of us fans really want and have been looking for: the release of "Uprising".
In closing, make NO mistake about it I have a grand deal of respect for Dave and crew and I know they have had a long-hard time working on this game that I could not imagine if hardly I just want to play this wonderful, beautiful masterpiece, gem of a wrestling game already! Anyway no hard feelings towards anyone and I apologize if I may have offended and or disrespected anyone here. It is not my intentions. To those now reading this, enjoy your day/night.
[quote][cite] EricJ1186:[/cite]I honestly can't say I care because I addressed that in my argument: indie companies have the benefit of the community being with them during development. Give us a beta to test, give us mods to test, give us SOMETHING to be apart of the process. Look up the game "Love" sometime. It is single-handedly the best example of a great indie developer. Eskil decided he wanted to create something that no one else has and he is nearly done the game. It's a procedurally generated game that allows the players a fully evolving game every time they play. What has Eskil done differently than Wishbone? As soon as the game was in Alpha, he released a version to test machines. Then, he began to allow players on the servers. Since the servers weren't free, he asked a small fee to play and because he was constantly asking for help (daily updates in addition to expanding the game constantly), people were glad to assist him.[/quote]
Excellent reference and idea! Maybe this is what Dave will do for us. Something like this... perhaps.
While you're entitled to your opinion, I would appreciate a little more patience from somebody who's only been waiting since 2006, when I've been one of those people waiting since roughly the time the game was announced.
Also, I will echo the sentiment that Dave could at least release the 1-on-1 version he's got right now so we could at least do a mass bug-test with it (you'd be surprised the things a player NOT looking for bugs would find), hype it up, et cetera.
This isn't Chinese Democracy or even Duke Nukem Forever; we DO deserve some playable demonstration of what the team's gonna put eventually put out. And that's coming from the guy who's gonna design the belts for it. Dave, if your team could at least compile a simple playable match (even if it's not in the Hammerlock but just an empty box devoid of anything that could consciously cause glitching) between two wrestlers that we could go through, it would go a LONG way as a good-faith gesture. Even if it it DOESN'T look as good as WWF WarZone, it's at least a start.
While those games are fun, they are hardly the same level as what PWX is trying to do. The gameplay and graphics etc. in PWX looks to be much more indepth. So I do not think that comparison is valid.
I would love a beta test. I have asked for one.
I do not want this game until it is ready. I do not want to see it get killed on IGN and thus kill demand for the full PWX
But Mat Dickie did in fact build a game empire and he also released his source codes for modders/coders to enjoy! He was one of the first. Noone should forget that. Have you seen the TWC 4 mod for Wrestling Mpire yet, it came out today? The game is looking better and better with the participation of community members from the Mpire Mall.
It may still get killed by IGN (we hope not) but if the community/fanbase is strong enough who needs IGN?
Patience noted, I agree with all of your sentiments fullMETAL. It is nice of you to be helping to design the belts. I actually have alot of respect for you. The belts look great! I don`t wanna come off as a bad guy or anything like that Dave but my dear friend I am hoping you are taking special notes to this discussion please. :)
I would argue though that the community/fanbase is not large enough yet to pull it off. The game cost too much to develop to do an MD style release.
MD's financial investment was not as high as this. Thus the risk to doing it the way he did it was lower. And lucky for him it worked.
Dave's financial investment AND potential profits are much higher. The risk of doing it the MD way is much much higher. I would personally say the risk is not worth it. If the game is good the community will be there. If IGN likes it, the game will sell and we will get a good community and lots of Mods. I think investing in a quality release is the best way to go.
Touche, although I`m sorry but that idea doesn`t make sense to me. If the wrestling game community got their hands on it at least they can support it enough to then put it on IGN. But we need to have a taste and things should be able to take off from there. You put it on IGN right now and people will say it`s too basic and not enough of this and that like they said about TNA Impact.
I agree it will be tough to get a great review from IGN without tons of glitz and glam. But, if the game is good then that will help. If it is clear the game is modable that will help. I think putting out a game with good gameplay will get it more support. Who wants to mod a game that is incomplete, big ridden or has crappy gameplay? Not many. I think in order to get people to want to mod it, you need to give them a solid core to work from.
Thanks for the good discussion guys. Especially EricJ1186, fullMETAL and sirdingus. It is nice to have an interesting discussion while the game is awaiting release. :)
...Really good discussion...But do you know what i think? Theres no game! I have no evidence to prove it, but what I think is that Dave is the smartest of all! Pre-order? This is for him to stay with your money! Come on people! Open your eyes! A game never took more than 5 years, so what I am saying, yes it is that this is all false and a large montage of images. You guys think: "This guy is crazy", but most people out there think exactly like me.
Don't believe? Ok, i will open a topic in Mpire Mall and we will see about that!!!
I'm going to try and bring some sanity to the conversation. It's unlikely but I'll try lol and I'll try to stick to facts.
A) The website is a gong show. I think we'd all agree with that.
B) The newsletters don't really say anything anymore.
C) There are some wonderful screen shots and videos of the game.
D) Dave is pretty good about answering topics and questions in the forum.
My biggest concern about PWX is that the momentum of a few years ago has been lost. I mean really in the last couple of months the posters have been the same 10-20 guys. (myself included) In my opinion PWX has dropped the ball in the last 6-12 months. While the have added facebook and twitter, I just check the twitter and it's pretty much updates as to the new newsletter being out.
I really don't like the tact that Ichr788 uses a lot of the time, but he does make a valid point, not so much as the games release but updates for the fans to look over and comment on.
On a side note The guys that made TWC 4 truly did do a very good job and I would be concerned that now the source code has been released a couple inspired programmers could get on improving the game play of Mdickie games. I was also happy to help them out in a small fashion.
If it's something that would interest you Dave... I am the blogger for the Calgary Flames on www.sportstalkbuzz.com I am also releasing an interview tomorrow with Rick Benej of www.tablehockey.com since it fit within the sports theme. There is also a wrestling and MMA section to our site. (May actually be looking for a wrestling blogger if anyone is interested) That being said I would happily talk with the boss about doing an interview with you about PWX, if it may help generate eyeballs to the site.
In my opinion the bottom line is new interest needs to be created in this game.
LOL. You may not like the tact I am using, but it`s pretty effective,it got you and several others talking about it didn`t it? Thanks for noticing my point. That is all I am asking for, more coverage on this game. What is wrong about that? I mean we were spoiled with vids and pics on Facebook and now it seems like there is a dry spell all of a sudden. What happened to the art work the new intern is working on? Otherwise, while I appreciate and respect what Dave is trying to do I am also possibly wasting my time if the game doesn`t come out. I still enjoy chatting on this forum though.
I don't think it's a waste of time at all. Hell my interview for the table hockey game I did is now up of you wanted to check it out.. http://sportstalkbuzz.com/index.php/component/content/article/663-special-blogs/1937-my-interview-with-rick-benej-part-1-of-2
If we get some good feedback with this we are talking about trying to get deeper into more table and video games.
One thing that REALLY bugs me... Is how Uprising was supposed to be the game that us, modders, will be able to tweak, re-design, fix the bugs and many more. All of this to help the future release of an actual Pro Wrestling X. Instead of that... The game, that will be released for the same purpose it was meant to be... For modding... The game, that doesn't even have a tag-team match, not to mention a Create-A-Wrestler... Is taking up just as much time as the "big" game we were all promised. And don't even get me started on how the "small" Uprising game was guaranteed to be released by the end of 2007. Hey... I'm still waiting. Why is the deadline date is such a secret? I'm not quite ready to say that the game is never coming out... But I'm getting closer and closer to that with each week that passes with no proper update.
I'm as frustrated as you all are. But what I don't think I've made clear enough is that I'm not developing anything myself. No art, no code, no nothing. I actually have to hire programmers and artists to work on PWX and when there are interruptions in funding there are interruptions in actual development while I work on raising more funds. It's happened a lot in the past and that's why it feels like PWX has been developed for years when it hasn't. And we're also a small team so when a lead artist or programmer becomes unable to perform for any reason that whole department shuts down until the situation can be resolved. Unlike Mat Dickie and all of the other great indy developers out there I can't code a damn thing and rely on the paid labor of others to make this game for us. And, really, I think we all want a better game than I could develop by myself even if I could.
But you and agree on one thing: release a damn game! And that's why I'm not repeating my past mistakes of putting promotion and marketing before the completion on a game. Every dime I have right now is going towards programming and art only when needed. Programming is being done full time right now. Everything else is a lower priority. It hasn't been a perfect development cycle to say the least but I've always been here pushing it forward even after momentum was lost and the criticisms began trickling in. I suppose it would be easy for me to come up with a reason to quit but I'm not going to do that. I'll get this game out because I said I would no matter how many challenges we face or how long it takes. Why quit just because it didn't go perfectly? Not when we're this close.
We all agree that the early excitement and buzz has suffered. But again, that's no reason to stop, it's reason to work harder. A new website, gameplay video, etc. would all be nice in the short term but I've made the decision to focus on the long term remedy to all frustration; the game itself. I believe it's the right decision.
And as always we HUGELY appreciate everyone who supported us by pre ordering the game and making donations. THANK YOU! And as always we offer full refunds to anyone who wants one. But regardless of lost momentum we're just going to keep pushing ahead on what matters most and hope to hell that new interest will be generated not only by new screenshots or videos but by the release of an actual game. Yes, we have an internal deadline and we're not announcing it because it's a business matter between us and our investors. If anything we are confident we will release Uprising well before the internal deadline. Thank you for respecting that.
Thank you everyone who engaged in this discussion with a degree of respect and tact. I hope you feel my response was equally respectful of your honest concerns and I welcome further open discussion even if the subject matter isn't always pretty and exciting.
Hey Dave, how did you keep your list of purchases? I know I threw my purchase at you around 2004 I think. My contact info has changed since then. Heck, I'm starting up my own company, so much time has passed!
Hey there! We've got all purchases stored in a database safe and sound. When Uprising is released we'll be checking to see if anyone needs to update their contact info and making the necessary changes. No Worries. Congrats on starting your company! If you need any advice let me know. I have a long list of early mistakes to learn from ;)
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]@Hoop27 I would be honored to talk with you for your blog. No holds barred and ask anything you like. How can I contact you?[/quote]
If you can dig it up, it's the same email address that I am registered here with Dave. Drop me a line, I'll throw it by the Program Director and see if we can get something going! if you don't have it just let me know what email you would like me to get in contact with you with. Thanks!
Anyway you could possibly record say... 1 minute of real time match footage? I assume you do have a working build that you could maybe show us? :D hehe worth a try. I am dying to see a 1p v. 2p match
And before anyone asks...no...I do not have a copy of the build, nor do I have any information other than what every other member of the boards has.
The above is to the few who are starting to email me asking me my impressions (3 emails this week alone) so before anyone else thinks to ask, I thought I would head it off at the pass.
Monitor is lying. He's really our primary investor and my boss. PWX was his idea and I just take orders from him. Email him all you want and ask him anything ;)
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]Monitor is lying. He's really our primary investor and my boss. PWX was his idea and I just take orders from him. Email him all you want and ask him anything ;)[/quote]
LOL.
Now Dave, we discussed this....I'm supposed to be the SILENT owner! 8)
Now I'll just have to have Scotty Mac demonstrate more finshers on your head and things will take a long time to revert back to normal!
OK, i am exploding! The CZW( wrestling company) will release a game first then you guys! TNA released a game before you guys! Come on Dave, end with this! Just tell there isnt any game! WE ALL KNOW THAT, MPireMall agrees there isnt any game!
[quote][cite] Confios:[/cite]OK, i am exploding! The CZW( wrestling company) will release a game first then you guys! TNA released a game before you guys! Come on Dave, end with this! Just tell there isnt any game! WE ALL KNOW THAT, MPireMall agrees there isnt any game!
PS: You suck dude![/quote]
Ok a few points;
1) "i am exploding" - I do not need to know that you are watching porn in your parents basement 2) Good for CZW. Who cares if they were to make a game first? This point is meaningless. 3) Ok... so TNA released a game first... a company.. owned by a billionaire... ug. Ok thats another bad point for you. 4) Why would Dave go out of his way to appease you when you're an obvious dick who has nothing better to do than go around flaming boards because you don't believe something exists? Do you go to churches and mock the priests too? 5) "WE ALL KNOW THAT"... do explain how you know... please... do. Because all I can see is you believe there is no game. A lack of evidence is not evidence for the lacking. Plus there is plenty of evidence around. 6) Why should we care if MPireMall agrees that there is no game? Since when did their opinion matter to people at this board? It is as if we all worshipped them and this is some big realization. Its not. 7) "you suck" um... ... ... I do not need to know about your warped fantasies of Dave, but he has a wife and family. 8) Go play in traffic.