I was discussing with another guy some time ago about psychology in japanese wrestling, basically it was about the whole "Look, I just no-sold your big move. What now, bitch?"-thing that plays a big role in most japanese big-matches. I then remembered how such fights are sometimes ended by a desperation finishing move, a move that is very risky and basically a "If all else fails"-move. I don't like how easy it is to bust out Burning Hammers and Kawada Drivers in Fire Pro and most other wrestling games, and then I remembered a discussion I witnessed at the No Mercy Zone some time ago. I don't know what it was exactly about, but it had something to do with putting 2 moves in the same slot, and how the second move can be used trough a certain activator.
I remember one sentence from that discussion: "If the opponent kicks out of 3 powerbombs, Kawadas new front special grapple becomes the Kawada Driver." Wouldn't a similiar feature for PWX be f'n great?
Let's use Megumi Kudo as an example and let's say she has 4 Front Strong Grapple Moves:
x-button = Elbow Smash /\ + x-button = Sheer Drop Tiger Driver < or > + x-button = Sheer Drop Powerbomb \/ + x-button = Sheer Drop Pyramide Bomb
Now let's say there's a second move in the SD Tiger Driver-slot, the Kudome Valentine. And this move can be used trough the following activator:
If Kudo has used 3 Strong Grapple Moves... ...and the match is still going... her new /\+x-move becomes the Kudome Valentine.
Other examples:
If Kawada has used 3 Powerbombs... ...and the match is still going... ...Kawadas new front strong grapple move x becomes the Kawada Driver
If Tanaka has used 5 Strong Moves... ... and the Match is still going... ...his new ground head move x becomes the Sliding D.
If Takashi Sasaki has used 2 D-Geists... ...and 1 Right Trail... ... and the Match is still going... ...his new front strong grapple move x becomes the New Style D-Geist.
This could also be used in a "If the move doesn't works, I'll try it again but in an even more devastating way":
If Stan Hansen has used 2 "normal" Lariats... ...and the match is still going... ...his new running special move x becomes the Western Lariat.
I can see this being useful for some wrestlers. A lot of other wrestlers tend not to have 'desperation' finishers in their movesets however, so I'd hope this feature would be optional for CAWs.
I advocate that many of the more damaging finishers should have a high-risk element to them though. That is to say, reversing certain ones (i.e. a speciality powerbomb into a hurracanrana) would be very likely to score a pinfall if the match is in its final stages.
It's a bit like the second tier special moves in VPW2. Some wrestlers had them, some didn't. One criticism I can see with your proposed mechanic is that it takes a bit of control away from the player. They have to allow a set of conditions to happen before accessing the bigger move. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. In fact, this system could make for some nice surprise mark out moments not unlike Fire Pro criticals.
Posting for the first time to say I like this idea in principal but I'm not a fan of taking the control away from the player. I think that problem could easily be solved by assigning a specific button combination to the desperation finish, such as square+x. You could even have the same requirements, just have the button combination remain inactive until they are met. Or you could have the player be able to go for the desperation finish at any time but have the probability of a reversal and the penalty (the damage done by the reversal) be huge until certain criteria are met. I'd also be in favor of more general criteria. Something along the lines of "x amount of time has passed" and "y amount of damage has been inflicted" as opposed to the number of finishers performed; though it makes sense to have at least one finisher performed as far as using puro psychology as a basis. Another interesting concept that is kinda similar is having wrestlers hit a more powerful version of their finisher (both in look and in actual damage done) if it is done at a certain point. Using Tanaka's roaring elbow as an example there are a few ways i see this working. One is if the player hits a move or series of moves that lead up to a big move, in this case the player would hit the combination Tanaka does before hitting the roaring elbow and sliding d (alternating elbow strikes followed by a spinning back elbow) and if they complete the combo and hit a roaring elbow it would do more damage and look more devastating. Another way would be after a reversal or double reversal, in this case a Tanaka goes for an elbow, the opponent ducks it or reverses it into their own strike which Tanaka in turns ducks and finally hits the elbow causing more damage and a more impressive sell by the opponent.
As a variation of the above, the control layout could be thus: Press the finisher button to perform the normal version, hold it to perform the modified version, provided the other criteria are met. The problem of removing user control is avoided this way. To help visualise things, this proposal is much akin to the weak/strong strike system in VPW2. (On an unrelated note, distinguishing between button presses and button holds, if combined with the grapple system of early Smackdown games, would produce quick-yet-rich grappling mechanics which I would consider ideal. This is another matter entirely however.)
I agree about the Smackdown system. I always thought there was a really good engine concept in there and then they came out of left field with the quasi-No Mercy engine. I think the idea of quick grapples by tapping a button and strong grapples by holding it would be one of the most simple ways to make a realistic wrestling engine. The only issue I could see with this system is that it may limit the number of moves available. That is assuming it would be the button on its own tapped or held and up down left and right + button(tap/hold). I'm sure there is a way to expand but 5 weak moves and 5 strong could be a little skimpy.
Move evolution is definitely something that should be heavily considered for the large-scale PWX game.
Kawada is just another great example of this: Powerbomb => Jacknife Pin Powerbomb (strong) => Folding Pin Powerbomb (special) => Ganso Bomb (max special)
Or maybe Inoki: Middle Kick => "Ali Kick" (the low sliding roundhouse) => Enzuigiri
I agree with everything fullMETAL said. I don't like the idea of the player having control over the move, it could result in move spamming I think (which I absolutely hate).
The issue which EvilEast brings up about grappling is a valid one. However, in early Smackdown games, a third tier of grappling was available, enlarging the movelists without removing the 'quickness' from the system: You'd have to bring a lying opponent to their feet, and keep hold of them as they stand groggily in order to perform these moves though. (In AKI games, wrestlers release their opponents as they do so, a facet I never liked.) Whilst holding the opponent like this, the strongest tier of grapple moves becomes available to use. I like this system as it reflects real matches- one can perform a quick grapple to a standing opponent instantly, but for a stronger move one must first take them down, then execute the move as one brings them up from the mat. (Early Smackdown games have notable flaws elsewhere though- many animations are too fast, and wrestlers are too agile and very quick to recover.)
Another solution comes from earlier Touken Retsuden games. As well as a takedown button, there'd also be a submission button, doubling the possibilities.
Move spamming could be a problem, but like I said earlier, you could place the exact same restrictions on the max special as you would if it wasn't player controlled. The only difference would be that the player actually has to initiate the move instead of hoping the game decides to do it for him. Another way to stop spamming would be to have automatic reversals (if only on the max specials and no other time) or reversals that are player initiated but are so easy it would be close to impossible not to reverse it (which would become more difficult as criteria are met) and that would cause a great deal of damage to the spammer. There are ways to lessen spamming and this feature wouldn't suffer any more from spamming then allowing a player to attempt a finisher at any time in the game such as fire pro and, if i remember correctly, PWX. Also i the criteria could be different for different moves. The sliding d for instance is used much more often than the ganso bomb, as is the burning hammer. I would be cool to have some moves that are really tricky to pull of but have a high offensive upside and others that are extremely hard to pull of but are just about an instant win (or would have a high risk of injuring the opponent in story mode) As for the Smackdown system, I agree that having the third tier of grappling would work and would still be more realistic than just about any other game. The only thing i don't like about that system is that you must bring a lying opponent to their feet to hit stronger moves, which is sort of an awkward restriction. It takes away the ability to hit a signature or otherwise powerful move on the fly or after ducking a punch or reversing a move. If I remember correctly you could also use the "picking up" moves by kicking the opponent in the stomach or otherwise stunning them. That is an interesting concept but there are a lot of moves that aren't set up by a kick to the stomach or a strike. I remember being constantly annoyed at having to double my opponent over to hit the Rock Bottom, cause that just didn't happen.
That's the natural problem. There are always more moves one can conceivably perform to a standing opponent than there are buttons to allow one to do so. The only improvement I can see being made to the SD system is some primitive type of 'clutch' system for pulling off strongest grapple moves as well as raising up the opponent. A quick grab of the head, in the manner of ASPW, is what I have in mind regarding this; one grabs the opponent's head then performs one of one's strongest moves, in case one doesn't wish to bring the opponent to the mat initially. Weak and medium moves wouldn't be affected by this system's presence.
As for finishers, though it could be considered crude by Fire Pro fans, a finisher button which can be pressed at any time is the best solution to the 'kicking' problem you mention. To err back on topic, such a system would probably be compatible with the 'modified' finishers mentioned by the OP.
Spamming would, as you mention, need to be discouraged. The solutions you propose seem sufficient to me, however.
The 3-tier grappling wasn't just used in SmackDown SYM...it was also used in Rumble Roses, of all games (actually, it combined the "style-specific" grapples--the 2nd tier--of HCtP with the Groggy/Pick-Up Grapples--3rd tier--of SYM). You know, back when Yuke's still had a conscience about licensing their engine out.
YAAAAY! I'd agree if I ever got to play it on the 360, but the PS2 original was still great. Plus, IT was the one that actually had a STORYLINE. 20 of them, in fact. Sort of.
A neat twist in the 360 sequel was a fighting game mode where moves did more damage and you simply had to knock your opponent out. If I remember correctly...