Welcome to Wrestling Gamers United Newsletter #370
1) Let's get Physical 2) Fire Pro HD ps. 3) Link of the Week
1) Let's get Physical *********************** We've shown PWX Uprising to a lot of people and the one question we get asked almost every damn time is, "Can you hit the punching bag?"
Not, "how many grapple positions are there?" or, "can you edit the AI?" or even, "can you create your own wrestler?"
What does that tell us? And this feedback isn't all from casual gamers. It's from experienced game producers, wrestlers, and self-described import puro-geeks. Why is it that almost everyone who sees that damn punching bag in the Hammerlock feels the urge to hit it? But the bigger question is are we as game developers doing ourselves a disservice by ignoring such obvious wants? Or are we sticking to our creative guns by putting our energy elsewhere? I mean think of the flack we got for adding balcony dives and that's something that is actually useful in the context of a wrestling game. And at what cost do we ignore such feedback if we do? Lets say for the sake of argument that punching bag interaction (I feel dumb just typing it) results in 100 more people thinking the game is fun enough to buy on impulse. Have we committed a crime then by including it? And at what point do we begin turning hardcore gamers off and losing sales? Did you know we actually got crap from someone about the Hammerlock itself because it's not an "authentic venue"? I think the Hammerlock is a character in itself and its one of the things I'm really happy about going forward with.
The issue is a very important one and walking that very thin line between hardcore vs. casual gamer is a tricky exercise. How far do you go in either direction before completely losing focus? In the end, you can't please everyone. But you have to please enough or it's game over.
2) Fire Pro HD ps. ****************************************** For what its worth (very little) I wasn't joking a while back when I said a publishing agent tipped me off to what he thought was a Fire Pro game coming to Xbox Live Arcade. Not to beat a dead horse, I just want to kill any rumor that I was a part of that...plan.
3) Link of the Week ******************** Kane wants Chuck Norris to overthrow the government and he's not joking. Welcome to bizarro world:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/jacobs4.html
Thanks to Darrell for the link. Who else but Darrell could have found this?
In the meantime and in between time, that's it, another edition of Wrestling Gamers United.
I'm not interested in hitting the bag....but I'm with fullMetal (BTW....I sorta like the sub-titles you've been using fM) and would like to strangle someone out with the flag!
Well I'm not picky about some punching bag unless you use it for a mini game to train your wrestler but that could be included in future titles of this series. So how many grapple positions are there and how many moves do you think will be in the game? I admire what you are doing in making this game and if I was you I would try to work from the inside out when creating this game. Which means game engine which you have done then moves, moves, moves. TNA Impact the video game would probably had been at lot more entertaining if you could have more than say 100 moves like that game did. I think the whole aspect of a fun game engine with lots and lots of moves is where you start everything else could be included as you go along. My other question is how many characters do you forsee having in the game and also if you have a CAW mode how many CAWs can you create? Thanks.
The truth is I don't care about a if you can punch the bag. I only care about things like how many moves, taunts & grapple positions they are. Important stuff like that. But that's just me. From day one that's all i care about.
Flag strangling! We have to make that happen! We already got some grief from Telefilm about the inclusion of weapons and the potential for male-on-female violence so can you imagine what they'd say about strangling French-Canadian women with Canadian flags?!
So far the feedback I've received via email has been split 50/50 with regard to things like punching bag interaction. Here's some of what I've received:
"...what about self-justifying it as an intro/control learningexercise for the striking combos? A solo training feature? A ragdoll ona string with infinite health that can be belted into oblivion topractice punch combos? "
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"Maybe folks think it more likely that they can do something simple like hit the punching bag than they would dare to fathom something more foreigh such as being able to do a balcony dive in Uprising."
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"The punching bag falls into the category of "Wouldn't it be cool?" of game development. Afterthoughts, generally from producers or over-zealous game designers that want that feature in there just because "it would be cool", though doesn't contribute to the core gameplay at all. It may be your first time experiencing this in game development, but it actually happens all the time. Honestly, people would be expecting that they can hit the punching bag, but by not being able to, they just give a disappointing sigh, and continue to pummel the crap out of their opponent."
I think it would be neat to have as many interactive things as possible so long as they ARE NOT minigames! I hate minigames. Like... okay it would be good if say you punched the bag it moved. It would be cool to grab the flag as a weapon. So long as its not like the use of the wires in SvR to choke someone you know? I just hate minigames so so so much :(
Yeah I'm not a big fan of those types of things either. The wire choking in SvR as an example, I would have been equally as happy if that choking sequence was just a short canned animation. Manually controlling the sequence just didn't add any fun to it.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]Yeah I'm not a big fan of those types of things either. The wire choking in SvR as an example, I would have been equally as happy if that choking sequence was just a short canned animation. Manually controlling the sequence just didn't add any fun to it.[/quote]
It should add fun to it. I was thinking, shouldn't mini-games be the core of wrestling games?
For example (this is real life BTW), I initiate the Figure Four Leg Lock on the downed opponent. The first thing that is expected is a struggle to get my opponent's legs and my legs in the proper position. Then, when I lock the move, we are in the core of the move. I'm bending my opponent's legs in a painful form and at the same time working to keep myself in the hold. Then there is my opponent trying not to let his shoulders stay down for the three count, same applies to me, but it's usually not an issue. At the same time, I'm trying to keep my opponent face up, he's trying to turn the move face down so he can be the one making pressure. I'm expecting my opponent to tap out or pass out. Don't forget, I have to make sure he doesn't try to drag himself to the ropes.
Now, in videogames, (at least the ones I've played). Opponent is lying face up. I walk near his legs and press a button. If my opponent didn't press 'counter grapple', a canned animation will occur where I take my opponent's legs and seemingly without resistance, lock the Figure Four Leg Lock. Then a ridiculously simple mini-game starts where I (usually) have to button mash to fill a meter. If I fill it, I win. If not, a canned animation occurs where my opponent breaks out of the hold.
What I'm saying is, in all the games I've played, the submission system seemed to be the most simple and most somewhat unrealistic feature in the games. I'm saying, that submissions, or certain moments, should be huge mini-games that grab your attention.
Because if you are a wrestling fan (aren't we all here), you know that when Ric Flair applies the Figure 4 to Triple H in the main event of the night, the whole focus is that moment, not the whole match anymore.
Will The Nature Boy lock it in?! He got it in! Is Triple H gonna tap out?! Oh no where is Triple H getting this strength and willpower!? He's reversing the hold! Triple H's shoulders are down on the mat! He can't take it anymore! Triple H taps out!! Flair wins! Flair wins!
Those moments don't deserve to be justified by a canned animation. I just think there needs to be rethinking when it comes to these moments, even when you choke your opponent with a wire. Of course something like a wire choke should be tame, should not be compared to Bret Hart's Sharpshooter or Flair's Figure 4. It always bores me when I do a submission and all I get is a animation in the middle of the ring. The camera sometimes doesn't even cut to the submission and when it does, the ropes are in the way. Button mashing ain't fun.
I guess I want more control and more excitement at the same time.
Lol, wow, long post. When you said that Dave "Manually controlling the sequence just didn't add any fun to it.", I was motivated to say this. I hope you all understood what I said and try to apply or use the basics of what I said, at least for your ideas.
I think with say the Wire choke etc. it is illegal so it should last for 4 seconds or you are disqualified. No need for a struggle. When do you really see it as a struggle? I have never seen a match where I guy choked a guy out this way. Usually the one guy breaks it or the other guy breaks it.
With submissions the hold is usually broken by moving to the ropes, tap out or reversal. If its early I don't see why it can't be easily broken without a mini game or without moving to the ropes. Perhaps some minigames are a necessary evil but this isn't MMA.
Yes, but see that's the rub. There's actually no such thing as a wrestling sim. Because wrestling is NOT a competition, and a wrestling video game is. The more you try to make it a sim, the more it becomes like two people fighting for real - a.k.a., MMA.
Isn't weird? When you think about it, in terms of controlling the action "authentically" SvR is the biggest sim out there and Fire Pro is as "arcadey" as it gets.
[quote][cite] action937:[/cite]The more you try to make it a sim, the more it becomes like two people fighting for real - a.k.a., MMA.[/quote] Surely though, if one tries to simulate the dramatics as much as possible, incorporating for instance the fact that a great deal of signature submission holds are met with no resistance in real matches unless they're reversed, then one will still have a 'sim', only this sim will represent a work of collaboration instead of a work of competition.
The problem with many existing games is that they don't try to simulate these dramatics, instead reducing the works of collaboration that constitute pro-wrestling matches into simplified dances of locking up time after time, with little variation on the in-ring action. They intend to replicate the drama, but they don't fully read the script.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]Flag strangling! We have to make that happen! We already got some grief from Telefilm about the inclusion of weapons and the potential for male-on-female violence so can you imagine what they'd say about strangling French-Canadian women with Canadian flags?!
[/quote]
Dude there is no such thing as bad press and could you imagine the CBC leading off the news with that! LOL
Seriously though I never thought about it all that much but I would like as many things interactive as possible even if doesn't do any or all that much damage sometimes it could be damn funny to use something on a buddy your playing a game with.
So ya I suppose I would love to be able to bounce my opponents head of a heavy bag, but it is not exactly a deal breaker.
The punching bag wouldn't sway me either way. I'm all about customization. Let me edit stuff! Give me control over what goes on during a match. I guess in some ways I want an engine more than a game.
The perfect wrestling game to me would be a sort of turnkey wrestling world. It would contain an endless stream (constantly updated through DLC) of wrestling moves, match types, clothing parts, belt parts and arena parts to choose from. It would allow you to create entire companies from scratch, including belts, rings, logos, rule sets for matches, etc. Creating a wrestler would be extremely robust - like a mix of Fire Pro's logic settings, SVR's CAW appearance system and the ability to have at least one layer of the guy "defined by the user" (as in, just upload an image into the game and it puts that layer over your guy. imagine importing transparent gifs of tattoos so they can be perfect on your wrestler, for example). It would have an intuitive management system allowing you to book events, generate rankings, etc. The presentation would be authentic like ASPW3, with excellent crowd participation like KOC2. And it would make a smashing breakfast every morning.
Personally, I'd probably sim matches in such an environment 99% of the time. I prefer playing booker and watching things unfold.
You just described exactly what we were hoping to build! And then we tried building it. But hey, you gotta start somewhere, right? At least you can rip open Uprising and replace damn near everything in it if your heart desires.
I bet if we offered a set of teen pop star skins for the punching bag and a set of Japanese wrestling stars as playable characters the punching bag skins would be more popular.
Oh man, though. Can you imagine where we could really get heat for user created content? Perhaps allowing people to be 'hung' in the Hammerlock is a PR nightmare we should avoid. Eep.
I am very excited about the prospect of PWX (Hell, even just a PC-based Wrestling game for once!) I'm not sure it would matter to me if the punchbag was hittable, so long as the wrestlers didn't 'walk' through it. Maybe you could use it as a demolition ball type weapon against your opponent?
I have had a lot of my own ideas as to how I would like a Wrestling game to look, and I agree with Sacrilegium in the post above. Lots of customisation and lots of DLC please :D