God damn this forum! I misclicked and lost my big, long post.
To summarize: I am a paid customer since December, and after purchase, I was told I'd get a free demo VERY soon. Sadly, that came and went. Now, with TNA about to hit and Smackdown vs Raw 2009 being the game to revolutionize the series, PWX is not in a good situation. Competition is good, but for emerging and unknown brands, they need to innovate. PWX has the benefit of being on PC as well as 360 (I wish PS3 as I don't own a 360, but oh well).
In the end, what I propose is instead of holding ANYTHING off for PWX, make Uprising THE game. A lot of promised features are simply "well, we are going to put that in PWX" leaving Uprising a very shallow demo. We are in the age of digital distribution and microtransactions. What the PWX team could easily do is create Uprising with 1v1, 8 wrestler roster, etc the current basic set-up for Uprising. In about a month, provide a free add-on which adds Create-A-Wrestler, Create-A-Move, Tag Team, and a few other features. Following this, once or twice a month, there would be a small update for a rather low price (say $2 - $10) which adds people, features, match types, items, even a story mode of some type, just keep going for as long as possible. What this does is gauge how people are taking to PWX with minimal risk and maximum benefit. Once it's obvious that Uprising is done upgrading, then consider doing a new game with some out of this world innovative thing, even AI would be great in a game (study Crysis' advanced AI).
This will probably go unheard, but I think it's time the team actually gave something new a try than planning for a future that may not even come.
Hmmm, definitely an interesting suggestion, and it makes sense for us (the customers) but I think it really leaves the development team too vulnerable. If they were to just make Uprising into PWX v1.0, then people would see what was meant to be a demo as the basis of a full game and think, "this is the full game? I'm not wasting my money on expansion packs." Also, I think it would be impossible to keep everyone happy with how often the expansions came out and how big the expansions were. You have to remember, the people on this forum represent a tiny slice of the audience PWX wants to reach. That other, humongous slice of people aren't gonna be as patient or understanding as us and will not stay with this game if the very first "full" version doesn't impress them. As far as the competition, I think SvR 2009 looks like more of the same (and I have to say, that franchise is LOOOOONG overdue for an engine overhaul) and TNA Impact hasn't impressed me in the least bit. People seem to forget, IMPACT is being made by the same company (Midway) that put out the atrocious WWF Attitude games with great graphics, but some of the worst gameplay ever seen in a wrestling game. It looks like they're still going with the arcade style, pseudo-fighting game approach where there's gonna be a lot of punchs and kicks and combos and all the other Mortal Kombat moves they're trying to pass off as wrestling. PWX is still in the intriguing position of being able to satisfy and recapture the rather large No Mercy faithful community that WWE foolishly ignored. We've waited YEARS for a No Mercy sucessor to emerge, we can wait a little longer.
Eric, first, thank you for your pre order and support! We're all as frustrated as you are over the delay in distributing Uprising. It's been many long years since we started and we just want the bloody game released so we can get some constructive criticism and move on to the next one!
I respectfully disagree though with regard to our competitive landscape, though. We made Uprising with roughly 2.5% of the budget they had for the TNA game. Midway has more animators on the TNA game than we have employees in our entire little company. The comparison is even crazier if we compare ourselves to THQ. I'm not trying to cop out, just point out the reality of the situation. I think it would be more fair (because lord knows the internet is sooooo fair) to compare us to other wrestling games in the same way you might compare N+ (http://www.thewayoftheninja.org/) to Ninja Gaiden. We can't beat the big budget games in every way. If we're lucky, we might be able to beat them in one aspect and offer just one little thing that those big budget games don't. For our first game we need to pull our resources from almost every other feature and just try to get one thing respectably right, cross our fingers that the fans accept our efforts, and get the chance to take the next step.
You mentioned microtransactions. Awesome concept. In fact it's one of the things that's holding up the release of Uprising. We have a company that wants to fund continued development of the PWX franchise and sell expansions in small chunks via microtransactions. It's a solid idea. Wrestling game a la carte. If you don't want a caw menu full of hip hop clothes you shouldn't have to pay for them.
The PC game industry is in the middle of a massive upheaval right now. The traditional distribution of stand alone games is rapidly losing favor to the free-to-play microtransaction business model. Hell, even EA recently announced that the famed Battlefield series will be switching to the free-to-play model and to be honest the decision has really pushed a lot of our financial backers to suggest the same thing for PWX. It's a very delicate situation. If we released Uprising right now to paying customers we could never turn around and give it away for free. That would just be so wrong and taking advantage of our biggest supporters.
It's hard to be patient when we're so close but there is a huge opportunity here with this tv show deal and everything to really blow the Uprising launch into a big deal. We don't want to rush into it and screw it up. I've screwed up more than enough already. I'd like to get the launch and distribution right!
[quote][cite] EricJ1186:[/cite]What the PWX team could easily do is create Uprising with 1v1, 8 wrestler roster, etc the current basic set-up for Uprising. In about a month, provide a free add-on which adds Create-A-Wrestler, Create-A-Move, Tag Team, and a few other features. [/quote]
I can see this system working. If each patch was cheap and only added a couple of features, but a vast number of them were produced, each fan could "pick and mix" from the different modifications to create the game they want to play.
For example: I myself would like to see "realism patches"; things which would complicate the grappling and chain wrestling systems in ways which I would enjoy but others would not. Conversely, modifications such as a story mode or a hardcore mod don't appeal to me, but I understand many other people want to see such aspects in PWX. Under this system they get their bells and whistles, and my hard drive doesn't get lumbered with something I'm not going to use. "Lots of little changes" would put strain on the developers, but would ensure everyone gets what they want without spoiling it for some. For less dedicated gamers, perhaps bumper packs containing several updates could be released to entice new fans.
That said it'd probably be deemed finantially ridiculous in the eyes of the publishing companies. Jakeshark has a point as well.
The little thing that frustrates me in every great man - his feel for reality. Dave - just for a second believe in yourself and your crew. You made a pretty good deal out of really almost nothing, you made up a crew with hardly enough cash for such a game and you have a loyal fan base. (small, but all in time) I truly think that if you and your crew truly believe that PWX will stir up the business, it will. I believe in PWX - so do all of us. Just imagine this - after budget problems, crew problems, contract obligations and all the grief and pain - you manage to create a strong game that has three times the playability of both WWE games and TNA games combined. For the reasonable price (of maybe +100$, truly reasonable) you ship the game and it hits every media. Just for a moment think - what if all wrestling fans buy it just because it's damn good? If you do this - you will [freaking] kill THQ and Midway - I believe in that 100%. You can't fail with such an idea. You want to create and play a good wrestling game more than all of us fans here. Don't give up on beating the competition. Make them play your game!
See, Dave, I think you are wrong. Have you seen the TNA gameplay video? The moves are pretty much generic to all characters (Sting did a frankensteiner and a springboard inverse ddt) save for finishing moves. It basically looks like a pretty Mayhem. Then, SVR09 is, and has never been, anything special. I think create-a-move is a GREAT direction, and if we just have that and Create-a-Wrestler I am content with the Uprising.
I just feel this is the last chance for a non-WWE game to take over the market.
Finally, you really need to use Youtube and Myspace to push this game hard. People need to know about it to buy it and these are free and easy marketing avenues.
Idea: if you guys indeed make Uprising THE definitive PWX (not just the "demo) and build on it using microtransactions, howzabout applying the pre-orders as credit for any future upgrading? Makes sense, right?
This is assuming you actually go along with the idea of making Uprising the base and building on that.
To clarify on how I suggest microtransactions work:
Don't have individual wrestlers, moves, or weapons for sale, but every 4-6 months, release a patch that adds a new feature for free. Say the game comes out in June, in September release a patch that enables tag-teams. In October, release a 5-10 dollar pack that adds new tag teams, some more tag team moves specific to those teams, and more options (like ring mats, tag weapons, etc). If people really think this doesn't work, look at The Sims.
The game is pretty much the best selling game of the last few years, and the Sims 2 has 7 expansions at $30 that sell like hotcakes. You are essentially selling expansions for $5-10.
If you don't put tag-teams in PWX but add them later I will personally fly to Canada and kill every single person in the WGU crew. tl;dr - bad idea! And PWX is not The Sims! Maybe EA sells TS2 expansions every week for money rich girls and boys have, but hardcore wrestling fans will bury you if you even think of selling the same game 10 times. I am telling you - just make a year worth playable game. Then make an expansion adding features. And if you need another, we will buy that too. I don't think I need to tell you successful games using the same formula - maybe 80% of the games are like this...
You are living in the past. Consoles themselves are even moving away from discs in favor of downloadable content. That means that most expansions will just be small add-ons. Also, if you never played on XBL or PSN, which from your posts I gather you haven't, this is a HUGE way companies are making money. Example: Rock Band has nearly doubled it's lists of songs with DLC, all of which costs 1 or 2 dollars. All of which have a high download rate by people who buy the game. The same thing happens with Halo and Warhawk.
Look at Half-Life 2. Episode 1 and 2 were $20 games that sold EXTREMELY well and added a ton of features. Uprising will not have Tag-Team. In fact, Uprising will just have 8 wrestlers, 1v1, and one weapon. Originally, we were paying $10 for Uprising, and it may be free.
Why is this so confusing for you? You pay the same amount either way. I would rather pay $10 5 times, but with some confidence that the game is good than pay $50 once for a gamble.
Would it satisfy you if they somehow meshed the two? Where you get a base game then they compile three add-ons into one expansion pack?
The fact of the matter is there is no safe way to say that PWX will take off. In fact, there is a good it could tank. By creating add-ons, they could at least gauge the interest in the product continuely. If add-on 2 does amazing, and add-on 3 does poorly, it may be content. But if add-on 4 and 5 do REALLY poorly and both are cheaper than 3, then you know the interest is dwindling.
Also, I forget where, but you said you wanted to mod the game. You realize modding the game will kill any chance of multiplayer, right? One of the worst features in SVR was the online where you would fight these CAWs with 99 OVR and spam moves. Imagine if they could mod more than that.
You are right! I have bought all Half Life games like that - the first and the second game. What I meant was that it would suck to sell every little thing for the game for 1 or 2 dollars. Booster packs - I can live with! But not the Maple Story stuff - If WGU sell a crowbar for $0.99 - they really are asking for a riot, like one user said here. But still - I am not the only one who wants mods for the game! Most of us do! And it's not hard to make something like a balance - like the FPW CAW point system which doesn't allow you to make undefeated monsters. It could be made. But just don't throw away the mods like that - they could make the community even stronger like that...
Maple Story is a free, pseudo-mmo, which means they have servers to maintain constantly. The only way they can survive is by charing for stupid thinks like a sword or something.
Uprising is vastly different. I plan to just play offline, personally, so any add-ons will just make it more fun for me. With online, it won't add or remove any type of balance. Instead of making them add all these different match types right away, they can add them as they go, innovate, etc. I personally can't stand table matches in the SVR sense, so I wouldn't buy an add-on based off that. I LOVE Ladder matches, so any add-on with stuff related to that will be added right away. As for multiplayer, it's the same thing. It adds variety, but doesn't limit gameplay. What if a person just likes 1v1 and doesn't want to bother with anything else? Give him a CAW editor and a Create-A-Move editor and he is set for life, but he may find something that interests him in a "realism" pack or something. The point is customizing what you buy. How much will a full fledge expansion pack costs that might not add much? $30? Maybe $20? So, if the game is $30 to $50 and an expansion is $20 - $30 you are spending anywhere from $50 - $80 for only a small portion of the content you want. This is best seen with Rock Band. When they release songs, they put them in packs for $9.99. If you don't want the pack, and want individualized songs, you can get them for $1.99 (with the Boston set). I may not like all the songs offered, so I won't buy them all. Simple as that. I am not talking about a crowbar, but maybe a $0.99 for random weapons, like lightbulbs, barbed wire bats, etc.
As for modding, you seem to misunderstand true modding. Modding, or Modifications, imply changing basic elements to the game. CAW is a mode within the game. Doing anything within it's parameters is not modding, but changing the code to allow you to jack up stats would be modding. Adding new items, new default wrestlers, etc is modding. That is VERY bad for PWX since I believe they want to go online. Modding in online fighting games just doesn't work for that reason.
Oh, then my bad! I meant just add wrestlers and maybe some arena/belt adds like in the FPW games. And I see - it will be impossible for the game to just ship everywhere, so I can forget about the way I want it...
Impossible because the industry is extremely corrupt. In order to get a game out there, you have to have a big publisher behind it. Big publishers don't like to take risks as much unless the developer has proved themselves, so we are left empty handed.
When I say add-ons, I mean like adding stuff that just enhances gameplay. But, also include a free patch the week before to unlock the feature, with the add-on making it even more diverse. For example, have a patch that enables fatal four way for free, then have an add-on that enables different types of fatal four ways. The benefit? Whatever is popular at the time can be added. Ultimate X? They can release an add-on similar to it. The possibilities are endless, and they will always have their fingers on the pulse of the game and the industry.
I hear ya. I don't think anyone will pay 99 cents for a weapon but they might pay $4.99 for ladder match if the core game is free to begin with. Thing is, we won't know any of this for a fact until someone tries it in the market place.
That's the question: do you wanna go balls out and take a massive risk that might pay off, or do you want someone else to do it first and reap the benefits?
You are already taking a massive risk with a wrestling game on the PC, seeing as how the PC market is dominated with FPS and RTS, but PWX/Uprising could be that breath of fresh air, and people are a lot more interested in a free game that they pay for down the line.
I advise studying the model of Maple Story, Gunbound, Guild Wars, and Savage 1 and 2. Those games really innovated the Online market and with a game that is in a genre direly needing innovation, you may have the chance with these items.
I am staying behind you guys 100% for one reason - customer relations. Few companies would actually speak with the consumer anymore, and the fact that, at least I'd like to believe, this topic as brought up in the newsletter at least gives me the satisfaction that the game is and always will be for the fans. I guess that's why I want to go this route. It's a lot more open-ended and really risk minimal.
Thanks Eric. Customer relations is always the one thing we can keep doing through good times and in bad. It doesn't cost me anything but my time to answer email or respond to forum posts. We have an adviser with the company who is a huge fan of the Maplestory revenue model and he has the experience to guide us in that direction as well.
Tonzophun, I'm with ya. Personally, I doubt I would even spend 50 cents on a baseball bat but I would likely spend $10 on a weapon pack with a weapon-specific match type or two.
Now, this gave me a really good idea: http://kotaku.com/384007/spore-creature-creator-date-and-price-detailed
The creature editor is essential a small portion of the game, which will pretty much allow people the ability to create creatures before the game is out. PWX/Uprising could use this concept in a much better way. Release a Create-A-Wrestler/Create-A-Move editor for say $5 ASAP. Again, if Uprising is free, I'll pay $5 for a game that already has a ton of customizing potential, and WGU will already have an idea how accepting people will be of this set-up.
So, give the game away for free but charge a few bucks for a separate CAW tool? I think it's a good idea in theory but I'd have to wonder how such a business model would be received by the fans? Even if the core game is free and you only charge $5 for a CAW tool I suspect more than a few people would view that as a cash grab. Ironically, I bet more people would accept paying $20 for the game and getting the caw tool free. Charging for a CAW tool just seems a little, I dunno, spotty?
Spore can get away with it because it has so much hype and I really think it'll be one of the best games ever. Will Wright can make a fine game.
As for with you, I said $5 for the tool because instead of charging $5 for the game, you get the game, and if you don't want to make wrestlers (some people hate to do it or just suck at it) so they'd get the game free. Hell, charge $10 and add a few other features, right out the gate. The idea is to release this tool ahead of Uprising so when Uprising does get out, people are already playing in the engine.
i think, maybe $15 for the game with say 6 wrestlers 2 arena's and say 4 match types. then additional packages like say
1. Bronze, Silver and Gold with bronze being the cheapest but smallest package and gold obviously being the dearest but complete package.
2. or continous packs i.e x amount of wrestlers x amount of rings and x amount of matches.
the bronze silver and gold could work out on say $5 $10 $15 respective to the package.
or the continous packs say $1.50 on a fourtnightly basis. and say the persons account reaches $25 all future content be free?
and aside from this maybe they get the editor as a side order for say $5 but bearing in mind that some items in the editor like clothing could be locked untill the right package is purchesed.
All right, we saw the new newsletter about the concept of a caged fighting game being adapted for the PWX engine, and I think this is an excellent example about how microtransactions will work.
Fan or not, MMA is the big thing right, and UFC's Octagon adds so much to the atmosphere of the fights. With the benefit of microtransactions, WGU will have the ability to tap into what's hot at the moment and add that match to a small pack. A viable cage match pack would be: A "classic, escape" cage, a "Hell-in-a-Cell" cage, and to sweeten the pack even more, add two luchadore style wrestlers + cage moves. Now, that TNA ran the Terrordome, I think this could be an interesting addition to a "specialty" cage pack, which would feature PWX versions of "Lethal Lockdown," "The Elimination Chamber," "6-Man Armageddon." and possibly "the Triple Tier Cage." The possibilities are really endless to how these packs can work, and all packs can add wrestlers and moves that sweeten it that much more.
If Uprising released next week, for free, as an 8-man roster, 1v1 wrestling game, build a solid fan base, then start releasing add-on packs once or twice a month, I can see the game being top notch in no time. With it being digitally distributed, patches to the engine can also help keep the game fresh and never fall into the SVR hole.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]So, give the game away for free but charge a few bucks for a separate CAW tool? I think it's a good idea in theory but I'd have to wonder how such a business model would be received by the fans? Even if the core game is free and you only charge $5 for a CAW tool I suspect more than a few people would view that as a cash grab. Ironically, I bet more people would accept paying $20 for the game and getting the caw tool free. Charging for a CAW tool just seems a little, I dunno, spotty?
What do the rest of you think?[/quote]
I prefer paying $20 for the game & getting the caw tool free. Dave when will we see a caw tool? Is it too early? Can you release something so we can play around with it then we won't have to harrass you about release dates like every week.