This week's question as mentioned in the newsletter: Are more grapple positions a good use of development resources or do they complicate gameplay unnecessarily?
I'm all for several grapple positions as long as you have a variety of moves from each position. I absolutely love KoC II, its probably my favorite wrestling game. Yeah the pace is a little slow and some things look a little "robotic" but having so many moves and being able to pull them off from several different positions makes it feel much more authentic. So yeah as long as there is a variety of moves to fill in each spot I'd love to see a lot of them.
well, u guys always said that PWX is going to be More Than A Wrestling Game, so, it has to have something different, something new; side grapples aren't seen on all wrestling games (actually i havent seen em in any wrestling game), so this is the proof that u r on the right track with PWX ;) If u keep it "simple" no1 is gonna remember PWX as something special, just as "another wrestling game"
[quote][cite] antiy4ho0:[/cite]Yeah the pace is a little slow and some things look a little "robotic" but having so many moves and being able to pull them off from several different positions makes it feel much more authentic. [/quote]
KOC2 does have a lot of grapple positions, but if you look closely you can see how almost every one of them starts with a brief and obsolete collar/elbow tieup. That is where the game is most robotic. The same applies to most instances of the side grapple in GG2K.
In the absence of quick grapples I'm all for lots of grappling positions, so long as the grapple positions themselves start from "ready" positions and not a prior generic grappling state.
One thing I dislike amongst most wrestling gamers is the belief that larger movesets alone make the grappling engine realistic. Whilst it is true that a CAW needs to be able to perform their real life counterpart's moves, they must also be able to perform said moves from the various positions their counterpart performs them from, if the game is to fully respect the flowing nature of professional wrestling.
Oh ho, Dave! Where did you learn the term "Vertical Slice"? ;)
I would point out that Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive have multiple grappling angles and positions too. However, you rarely get to use them considering the pace of the game - which is also to say that it's so well integrated that it's quick to pull off, but only when the situation calls for it. If you have side grapples, then adding other positions should be fairly easy for the programmers. I would say put them in if you have time, but it should not be a major priority at this point in the project.
I really hate that elbow-to-the-head move. It just feels like such a piece of filler.
That said, I don't really know much about wrestling games that utilize lots of different grapple positions (but I'm gonna give you my opinion anyway).
Side grapple sounds alright, I guess, but there doesn't seem to be much to differentiate it from the others. You've got that elbow-to-the-head, maybe a small package, though that can go both ways. Abdominal stretch? So unless there's a great list of side moves that are perfect for it, I'm kinda iffy about having to memorize which moves have been arbitrarily assigned to the side grapple position and which ones have not. Besides, whenever a wrestling game has a Sitting or Kneeling grapple they just end up being ignored. That could just be me, I guess.
Quick question: the newsletter states that Uprising will have no running grapples but they're going to go in eventually, right? Right?! I love running DDTs. They're oh so satisfying and painful looking.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]This week's question as mentioned in the newsletter: Are more grapple positions a good use of development resources or do they complicate gameplay unnecessarily?[/quote]
Adding new grapple positions are one of the best ideas i've ever heard but i think you should only be doing side grapples if if they are moves that can't be done with a front & back grapple that can be done with a side grapple ONLY.
Either way i don't see any harm in it because you will definitely have more move slots with side grapples to add a variety of moves.
At least you're doing something really good now. I'm 100% for it. I don't believe it complicates gameplay but add more depth if done right.
If they are done right yes they could add more depth to the game. Also ,it makes it possible for more/different type moves so I think it is an excellent idea although it should be done in the next game, or it should appear in an upcoming expansion pack as I really cannot wait for the demo to come out.
[quote][cite] lchr788:[/cite]If they are done right yes they could add more depth to the game. Also, it makes it possible for more/different type moves so I think it is an excellent idea although it should be done in the next game, or it should appear in an upcoming expansion pack as I really cannot wait for the demo to come out.[/quote]
I think the only reason to have a side grapple position is if the chain wrestling system is going to be very in-depth. Even then I really don't see it being very useful though. I honestly can't think of one single move that you couldn't do from the front or back grapple positions. Also if you look at "real" pro wrestling a side grapple is not really something that is common but front and back grapples happen multiple times in a given match. I would see this position as the sitting position that are in some games. It's cool that it's there but you don't really do anything with it and honestly if it were gone most people probably wouldn't even notice. I would rather have a broader selection of moves.
[quote][cite] Bubs1982:[/cite]I think the only reason to have a side grapple position is if the chain wrestling system is going to be very in-depth. Even then I really don't see it being very useful though.[/quote]
A deep chain system, which you mentioned, would be aided a great deal by a side grapple; such a position can easily become an armwrench, a hammerlock or one of dozens of grounded armlocks. If one considers that a side grapple simply means "holding your standing opponent's arm whilst standing at their side", one realises that such a position may occur many times in technical matches- it just blends into move sequences a little better than collar/elbow tieups or rear waistlocks do.
[quote][cite] Bubs1982:[/cite] I honestly can't think of one single move that you couldn't do from the front or back grapple positions. Also if you look at "real" pro wrestling ... front and back grapples happen multiple times.[/quote]
Careful. There's a difference between "being in front of or behind an opponent and then performing a slam/suplex etc" and "grappling an opponent from the front or the rear before performing a slam/suplex etc, viz. locking into a collar/elbow tieup or rear waistlock before doing the move itself." The former applies to nearly all "grapple" moves in real matches. The latter only applies to some moves in real matches but (unfortunately) to almost all moves in existing wrestling games. It would be more accurate to say you can't think of one single move that cannot be done when standing in front of or behind the opponent than to mention "grapple positions".
All very true but I think his point is still very valid. Even moves that appear to have an actual 'side grapple' as part of them (side bearhug, side suplex, backbreakers etc) could easily be done with a back grapple without looking contrived, and even if not people are so used to seeing them executed from back grapples it seems unnecessary. I just really can't see it being a gameplay mechanic where you could go 'look, we've got side grapples!' and expect more than 10% of pedants to give a toss.
The likes of armlocks and hammerlocks (including Booker T's twisty kick thing) are pretty much all executed in real life from the front or back anyway, so applying them from the side would probably actually look worse.
Really, if you can do it, do it, but otherwise I really wouldn't bother. I'm in an optimistic day!
I like the idea of a side grapple (and different grapples in general). I think the analogy to seated position (i'm thinking no mercy) is good. There were specific moves for seated but it felt quite intuitive rather than clunky like KoC where you have lots of grapple positions and have to divide your moves up.
I'd rather have different grapples purely as part of the chain wrestling system i.e. i want to pick up my opponent and go for a side slam i'd do that from a back grapple. I want to start as a collar/elbow tie up, switch to side grapple and work and arm. I imagine the chain wrestling as quite seperate, almost the way the shoot fight was in wcw/nwo revenge. One of your moves can be to initiate chain wrestling.
I'm quite excited to see how this turns out, because there still isn't really a wrestling game (that i've played) that allows you to realistically start a match with some wrist locks and build from there
I believe there are alot of side grapple moves to add and alot of variations to moves as well ... not nessisary to remember all your moves, as it would just be another grapple + strike + direction = outcome to perform move. ( or however the moves will be linked to the game ..i.e. svr ) pump handle slams , taz plex , cobra clutch, belly to back suplex variation ( some smartass will quote the side grapple is not the back later ) knee breaker , shoulder breaker, and so on. Don't really see how it should slow the game down ( except for the release date ) !!!!! another folder to add I guess and a few weeks for animations. I'm all for it! Now for the tomatoes to be thrown my way ..... Dave " TAKE YOUR TIME ON THIS GAME ." I haven't waaited as long as most, but like what I read whats going on with the game. The more it seems to be comming out the more it seems something hasn't been added to the game. WE need CAW and online multiplayer story mode ! I want to control My 1 and only wrestler, against all of your 1 and only wrestlers. Team up with someone, a fully interactive wrestling league where we meet at a certain time each week on any night/afternoon, where its not what I decide all the time that makes my storymode diffrently but everyone involved in the making and playing of the league.
Stepping out from retirement just to add one thing. Are grapple positions only a way to add more moves and to increase the size of move sets? I think the importance of new grapple positions comes from new ways to attack opponents and set up moves. Keep it up guys Ill be back sometime.
[quote][cite] Landstander:[/cite]I like the idea of a side grapple (and different grapples in general). [/quote]
I guess an "improved" KOC2 multiple grapple position system would work, so long as the grapple moves themselves are performed from their correct starting holds. Although it's nothing revolutionary, and you've probably thought harder than me about it before, I've had a few ideas of some initial grappling positions that would be appropriate for an accessible and fairly realistic system:
I think i would like tieup, hold arm, front face lock, side grapple, back grapple plus maybe greco roman knuckle lock for the chain wrestling (i'm sure theres move). Then have your main moves from tieup and back grapple, i see how having to go to a collar elbow tieup to go for a powerbomb isn't as realistic but i think its more intuitive and i have no problem with doing that in fire pro and no mercy. plus i hated in KoC having to give 4 moves to a grapple position when i just wanted to use 1 move from that position, if i want an exploder, ddt, powerbomb i use up 12 move slots
[quote][cite] Landstander:[/cite] i see how having to go to a collar elbow tieup to go for a powerbomb isn't as realistic but i think its more intuitive and i have no problem with doing that in fire pro and no mercy.[/quote]
Although I disagree with locking up being intuitive, thank you for seeing my point. I've probably mentioned this before, but an important problem with making the game is that there will always be reasons to dislike whichever grappling system finally gets chosen. Perhaps some settings deep within the options menu allowing players to customise the grappling engine to their liking could be implemented (a more advanced version of the CAW in SD:HCTP springs to mind). This may cause problems for the AI programming but (to bring this post back on topic) it could allow individual users to resolve any issues they may have with side grapples or other positons.
I agree that side grapples don't seem on paper to provide much "wow." Games have done fine without them for so long, and there are definately other areas that those previous games lacked which should be capitalized on, first.
I think the biggest obstacles being faced by games like wrestling games now (such as the horrifically stagnant Smackdown series) is that control and flow of game play is mechanical and stiff and not intuitive at all. I love the idea of side grapples. But I guess if I have a point it's that I hate having 20-some grapples available to me with no real way to tell them apart or to make using them intentional. Again, for example, Smackdown. Push a direction and a button and there's your move, but I would really like to be able to figure out what sort of move I want to do and have a control scheme that allows me to intuit how I'd pull it off...like by breaking things up into positions, like the head-between-legs prelude to a powerbomb, that can also end up as a piledriver or over-the-shoulder back breaker or whatever else, you're sort of giving cues to the player as to what they're going to end up doing. Then if control can allow if to flow smoothly enough, without awkward pauses and such, and if your opponent can still work to change positions or counter, I'm a very happy girl.
I know it's not really 100% on topic, but that's what I was thinking. I hate it when every move just seems random and arbitrary. It totally neuters big moves. I want big freaking ring-shaking moves to feel like big freaking ring shaking moves. And when <Paul London> hits an SSP, I don't want the effect to be the same as if some dude dropped an elbow early in the match.
Okay I'm done now... >_>
PS - Will there be post-chop wooing of any kind? O.O
I think Side Grapples are: 1) an excellent way to allow for more moves while keeping certain crucial Front and Back Grapple slots in a wrestler's moveset open for the rest of their moves. 2) an excellent way to expand the AI Logic part of the game.
And speaking of Logic: - if you can alter Logic using Mouse & Keyboard, as well as the controller (I'm assuming a "yes" correctly, right?), it already has one up on Fire Pro. After all, the other major reason Logic was such a pain in the FiPro series was the fact that you had to scroll and alter using the controller (the first was the constant trial-and-error you had to go through to make your custom fight like with the game defaults and not look retarded).