This week's question from the newsletter is about a new concept for online multiplayer that focuses on simmed cpu vs. cpu matches instead of head to head. Would you be at all interested in an online mode that had you edit and train your character's AI and sim your matches online instead of playing them head to head?
I want to be able to train my CAW AI so that when I'm in a tag or larger match and not controlling him, he follows his gimmick. However, watching simmed matches and not playing is BORING. ;)
With regards to online play, I agree with what you say about SvR, but online play among close friends can be fantastic! My biggest wrestling buddy is in Michigan and I've moved to Chicago, and when we would Play SvR online it was almost always great. Having that capability would definately be appreciated, even if the strong online community doesn't grow out of it. E-Fed folks would probably love it as well.
YAY finally it has came time to were I can step up and give some ideas for a Policed Online mode
If your looking at Smackdown then looking at PWX most of the people I know that I have told about this game are hoping for online play cause of the boring lame kids on Xbox Live that play Smackdown..Let me take note Smackdown isn't a Wrestling game no more its a Pure Fighting Game with Wrestling moves...
Now with that said here are 3 things what would make Online more enjoyable
1. Stat Caping: Give use the players the ablity to Stat Cap are room if my Wrestler is 80 ovr attack and 78 ovr defence Im going to want people of the same level so I would Cap my room at Attack Rating to 70 to 80 same for Defence rating fair even match
2: Weight Caping: This is a must have in Smackdown Vs Raw all people want to do is max out a Superheavy weight just cause they have max Str and Max Dur making a Weight Cap for rooms would make it so I could set it to only playing Cruiserweight/Light Heavyweight to something to that nature so I can play what I want to play
3:Kick/Ban: Give each player a black list if a player just so happens to play lame or has a play style you don't like throw them on your Black List you will never play them again..but you would also have to think about how that would work what would the player be banning the ip no that can change, Mac Address dunno if it would be posssiable to get...Oh I know there CD Key thats what enables them to play and that marks them to them so theres no coming back for you unless you buy a new game now that would really work you guys favor more money to you to make a even better game
Now I have talked and preached about these settings since Smackdown vs Raw 2006 2 years later nope still have to deal with Noobish Kid play.....-_-
I'd like the option to watch simmed matches with a buddy, but I don't think it would very popular and you would face the same problem with simmed fights as real people controlling. You would get people that would set their AI to kill & destroy, and not have a wrestling match. Obviously I can't say how its going to work in PWX, but in Fire pro I could make a guy that could beat people with double his stat points just by his AI. Instead I enjoy making logic settings that will wrestle a unique way, do his signature moves at good times in the match and not beat his opponent with a club to the back.
I think you only need to do a few things to make sure that PWX is an enjoyable experience online.
- Make sure theres moves that don't create unblockable/counterable states. - Give us the option to create a stat cap on our game. A specific stat cap would be nice, because certain stats obviously mean more than others. I don't know what kind of attributes we will be able to give our wrestlers in PWX, but Endurance and Strength obviously are much more important than speed in Smackdown for example. You could create a CAW that is very similar to the 99 OVR guys while only using 70-80 points. - Be active on the anti-cheat system. Hot fixes when popular hacks are released and whatnot. Of course I'm sure this is easier said than done, but thats a big problem in pretty much every online game.
Sure you'll still get people that will min/max their characters. Have very specific movesets that have the most powerful moves. You'll have people that will want to win off of any move. But you can't change that, thats from the players. The best thing to do is give us a friends list and an ignore list. I don't know if match ratings are still a possibility, but implementing those in online might give people incentives not to try and win every match with whatever they can. Making each rating saved to this guys online profile would also be nice. You could then see the players average match rating, his highest rating his lowest rating, his last matches rating etc;
I'm a huge fan of online gaming and I really do believe a wrestling game can be done right. Some people enjoy games different than other people so you will always run into people you don't like to play against. In every single game I've played theres always people that try and exploit anything they can to get an advantage. Does that keep me from going online? Nope! I play the game with people that enjoy the game like I do. I ignore the people that exploit the game and I have fun playing it the way I want to.
My two cents: I wouldn't necessarily want to watch a simmed match, but I would be very interested in entering created wrestlers into an online tournament that was run by the studio, and/or in tournaments or matches run by myself or friends.
Give me the option of watching the simmed matches, and saving them locally or on a centralized server so that I can send them to friends to watch, or submit them to an online database where the best matches (Match of the YEAR candidate!!) are voted on by the online community.
However, I think having online multiplayer is great as well. One thing that online multiplayer does it it shows what works and what doesn't in the fighting system. In SvR, everyone will use the same set of moves because they found glitches in them. As the developer then, you guys can fix these problems. Online multiplayer can be like an ongoing beta testing all the time.
I want to play other people on PWX Uprising, but I also like the CPU vs. CPU idea.
I'm pretty keen on this. As Dave said, if there's no way around the issues of PvP online - which there seems not to be - then I think simmed matches is a great jump to go to. I'd support this, only if the game engine ensured that a quality, entertaining and appropriately lengthy match occured, so that it's WORTH watching. "Will my guy go over?" "Only a 2-count!"
I think it's fanstastic, it brings the excitement of watching wrestling, except it's using 'your guy.' As long as good quality matches occured, and we can make sure that the CAWs act how we want them to - since we can't control them, this is the best option to keep it 'realistic' to us - then I wholeheartedly support the idea.
Think about it, it's just the same as watching wrestling, but you get to watch your guy wrestle. Without knowing for sure when or how it will end. That's awesome.
Dave, you know I'm a big proponent of online multiplayer. I believe we've even had a nice lengthy debate on the topic elsewhere. My views on the topic are very firm because I saw this as the perfect game to bring wrestling games online. While the jump has since been made, I still find that's a huge sticking point in why I'd like to play the game.
I think simulated matches will come off like a meek offering when so many other games are real-time, online (and for some, it's the primary draw of the game). As if to say, "We don't have turkey, but here's some tofurkey." Some people will take a bite, and possibly even enjoy it. But others will simply choose not to eat. Especially when almost everyone else is offering turkey. I'm stretching this metaphor beyond its reasonable bounds, hahaha.
When it's a major-company game that is sure to have a following behind it, it makes it easier to find people nearby to play against, (partially) eliminating the need for online multiplayer. When you're a smaller studio that likely won't see the huge sales figures of other games (no offense, as I love this project, but it's not gonna touch Halo-type sales figures), it's going to be a little bit more difficult to find an opponent locally, thus further creating a need for a nationwide community. After all, playing against the computer stops being challenging after a while, and you're getting a unique experience every time you face another person.
[quote][cite] action937:[/cite]I'd rather watch paint dry[/quote]
This.
If your not committed to head-to-head online play, then you should probably leave it out altogether. AI (*coughSMACKDOWN & WRESTLE KINGDOMcough*) and editing AI is much more important, anyway.
[quote][cite] ThE AcIdIc 0nE:[/cite]YAY finally it has came time to were I can step up and give some ideas for a Policed Online mode
If your looking at Smackdown then looking at PWX most of the people I know that I have told about this game are hoping for online play cause of the boring lame kids on Xbox Live that play Smackdown..Let me take note Smackdown isn't a Wrestling game no more its a Pure Fighting Game with Wrestling moves...
Now with that said here are 3 things what would make Online more enjoyable
1. Stat Caping: Give use the players the ablity to Stat Cap are room if my Wrestler is 80 ovr attack and 78 ovr defence Im going to want people of the same level so I would Cap my room at Attack Rating to 70 to 80 same for Defence rating fair even match
2: Weight Caping: This is a must have in Smackdown Vs Raw all people want to do is max out a Superheavy weight just cause they have max Str and Max Dur making a Weight Cap for rooms would make it so I could set it to only playing Cruiserweight/Light Heavyweight to something to that nature so I can play what I want to play
3:Kick/Ban: Give each player a black list if a player just so happens to play lame or has a play style you don't like throw them on your Black List you will never play them again..but you would also have to think about how that would work what would the player be banning the ip no that can change, Mac Address dunno if it would be posssiable to get...Oh I know there CD Key thats what enables them to play and that marks them to them so theres no coming back for you unless you buy a new game now that would really work you guys favor more money to you to make a even better game
Now I have talked and preached about these settings since Smackdown vs Raw 2006 2 years later nope still have to deal with Noobish Kid play.....-_-[/quote]
The Kick/Ban part is beast. We can have a great! Online with this
I enjoy watching sims time to time. My friends one time where playing SDvR07, 6 man elimination I think, (only two controllers so I couldn't play at the moment) and my CAW was CPU controlled, my guy ended up kicking my friends asses then we were going crazy when my CAW won the match. We were enjoying ourselves soooo much, even though we weren't playing. It was fun, because you didn't know who was going to win. Different from wrestling, where usually you can tell. Brings back the fun and unknown of wrestling. With games, they don't have to conform to the dynamics of a wrestling match and it makes it, exciting.
I think online simmed matches would be...well...gay.
Regarding the maxed out stats: I was hoping that somehow in PWX there would be some other style of stats other than the old Smackdown style of fight 500 matches until your points are capped at 100. I always hated that. In the end every CAW ends up being the same.
Also, regarding move spammers: That is going to happen whether you are playing online or offline with your "friends". (Real friends don't spam). I think there should be some counter-measures for that built into the game play mechanics because it's also gay. Maybe, if one person spams a move the other gets a spirit/stamina boost or maybe a period of invulnerability to grapples...or a gun.
[quote][cite] ThE AcIdIc 0nE:[/cite]YAY finally it has came time to were I can step up and give some ideas for a Policed Online mode
If your looking at Smackdown then looking at PWX most of the people I know that I have told about this game are hoping for online play cause of the boring lame kids on Xbox Live that play Smackdown..Let me take note Smackdown isn't a Wrestling game no more its a Pure Fighting Game with Wrestling moves...
Now with that said here are 3 things what would make Online more enjoyable
1. Stat Caping: Give use the players the ablity to Stat Cap are room if my Wrestler is 80 ovr attack and 78 ovr defence Im going to want people of the same level so I would Cap my room at Attack Rating to 70 to 80 same for Defence rating fair even match
2: Weight Caping: This is a must have in Smackdown Vs Raw all people want to do is max out a Superheavy weight just cause they have max Str and Max Dur making a Weight Cap for rooms would make it so I could set it to only playing Cruiserweight/Light Heavyweight to something to that nature so I can play what I want to play
3:Kick/Ban: Give each player a black list if a player just so happens to play lame or has a play style you don't like throw them on your Black List you will never play them again..but you would also have to think about how that would work what would the player be banning the ip no that can change, Mac Address dunno if it would be posssiable to get...Oh I know there CD Key thats what enables them to play and that marks them to them so theres no coming back for you unless you buy a new game now that would really work you guys favor more money to you to make a even better game
Now I have talked and preached about these settings since Smackdown vs Raw 2006 2 years later nope still have to deal with Noobish Kid play.....-_-[/quote]
Loving this. On a sidenote - no offense - but your spelling and grammar make it a bit difficult to grasp your points. Which is a shame, because they were fantastic points once I understood them.
The rooms option for different weights/stats is excellent. Well thought out.
Well, if so, it could be an addition to "normal" online playing. It could be a game within the game, with rankings, virtual cash, different leagues, titles to be won, small league shows all the way up to pay-per-wiew shows. Charisma and promo points, storylines, interwiews, live commentary... Well, that sounds like a game all its own.
So I guess my answer is NO, since making simmed fights interesting would take A LOT of extra work. Too bad really, could've been fun.
I know exactly where you are coming from on this one Dave. I avoid on-line play in fighting games, simply because I want to have a good time, not just beat someone silly, or play reversal fest, or whatever the current min/max flavor of the month is.
So, I would enjoy the simmed league. I have always enjoyed those types of things, going all the way back to making profiles in Front Page Sports Football Pro and being in leagues. It's also pretty popular in the Firepro scene for e-feds.
But, it's not going to be for everyone. As an OPTION for the on-line mode, I'd be all over it, and would use it. The general population is going to want to get in there and control their guy and show off their 'leet' skills. It's the nature of the beast.
It will take an AWFUL lot of AI work to make this an even viable option. I'm afraid the general population would not want to spend the time working and tweaking their AI. That requires real thought, trial and error, and work. Someone just wanting to get away from their worries and beat the snot out of someone is not going to want to put in that kind of time.
It is happening in Firepro due to the new people who have picked up the English version...but only a FRACTION of them ever try to get into CPU Logic.
Well I don't understand how Dave find this CPU vs CPU sim matches interesting. I think that the concept of creating your own CAW and train it to become the best is a great idea, but the matches that he would fight shouldn't be sim matches. Do you really feel like playing a game when you just look at the PC and wait to see who won? Well I don't and something tells me that neither do PWX fans.
Thanks to all that like my ideas and yea sorry for the spelling and grammar was in a rush and excited that I finally got to express these points...
Cause I actuality make fighting games with Fighter Maker 2nd but we don't have online play in that but I make my games around the idea if we did have the option or if someone finds a way to add it.....
But ne way most of my ideas are back when I played SvR06 online for a complete year cause it was like I make a match and people would come in with a Max stated superheavyweight gangster that looks like a tooth pick if you get what I mean
But yea the 3 settings I talked about would really work out I know they would be then again you have to think about hackers so I would say use something like Punkbuster that checks the files CRC or Sum Check to make sure there not tempered with but I dunno when it comes to a game like this you also have to have something check your save file for tempering maybe when you load the game up
But like Vetes said online could become a ongoing beta testing to find bugs and glitches within the gameplay video recorders would come in handy for this
The whole problem is, of course, balance. And it's very difficult to balance all the characters in a wrestling game, I'm assuming (since noone's done it). I say forget winning. Trying to make it so anyone can win versus the most hardcore player is kind of insane with a wrestling game. In other genres you can control that, but when you've got stats and millions of different moves, some of which are more exploitable than others, no way.
The only way to do it would be to have a very dedicated online mechanism. With servers (Federations?) that have specific rules that can be set like Maxed Stats or No Cheap Moves. Which'd be very difficult to get right (like which moves are cheap and how do you ban them?). And let's face it, these guys don't have the money for that kind of infrastructure.
So these Publishers are telling you you've got to have online multiplayer? Have they offered any kind of help or are they just expecting you to deliver? Seems kind of unfair.
So the only other way I can see it working is with some kind of points system, where points are given for playing in a particular way that is neither cheap nor unsportsmanlike. Maybe even give Achievements. But that would be pretty difficult to implement correctly, too (like how would you mechanicly track an exciting match?). And you'd be forcing people to play a particular way.
Another way to go would be to have an open review/points system, where spectators and participants can rate how much fun they had and have the points or ratings or whatever handled that way. But that could be exploited easily and you'd have the phenomenon of every rating skewing towards the middle. On a scale of 1 to 10, people always give a 7 or an 8.
Personally, I don't care. I don't really see the point of playing a wrestling game online.
It would be a great way to keep online playing fresh.
Awards for things like: Pinfall Submission DQ Count Out Blood Finisher Escaped the Cage Grabbed the Belt (Ladder)
These would allow us over time to see what type of guy we're getting into a match with. Homie with 3 submission medals but 112 Count Outs is gonna be cheap and you'll know to watch for it.
These little ways of self policing are really the only way to restrict Spammers and lamers.
Also, you could give out little nuance medals for crazy stuff.
Examples: Defeated Someone with a Spammer ranking of 25 Defeated A Super Heavyweight Beat a World Title Holder
Yea what you pretty much have to do is make people play the game fair but people will always come up with something to say that this is cheap and this is lame..funny example...
in Smackdown Vs Raw 2008 Picking up and dragging you can no longer block...
I was in a match one time with a known fair player and they come off and say that dragging is cheap/lame and I was like..WHAT??!! just cause "It can change the outcome of a match" ok yea so what you do you want me to do if your near the ropes get of the ring and just push you away from the ropes by collision detection if I get in by your layed out body....Yea I wish something like this isn't possible in this game VERY unrealistic
But yea self policing is something that is needed in these games
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I agree that rewarding honest achievements would go a long way towards promoting sportsmanship online. Cheating is a problem that can perhaps never be completely solved but at least we can reward those who play fairly.