One of the biggest problems with any wrestling game, even No Mercy, is that, while it's certainly possible to balance the game, make it competitive, it's hard to create that professional wrestling flow to a match.
One problem is that it's hard to translate a performance to a legitimate competition.
I'm curious, regarding PWX... have you guys considered this angle, or was most concentration spent on pure balance? Will it be possible, for example, however rare it may be, for me as a 'face character to get treated like a jobber for 5 minutes and suddenly pull off a spectacular move and break out the surprising win?
Interesting you posted this. I was just on another forum and essentially what 2 people expressed was (and i share the view);
Initial: Truthfully for most wrestling games, I look at them more like fighters, not so much wrestling simulators. I mean, when I play the game I don't think, "Wow, that piledriver looked nice, and Orton sold it properly." I think, I just crushed that guy for real with a piledriver. So in my mind while I'm playing, I'm not orchestrating a wrestling match, these two guys are fighting for real, just using wrestling moves, if that makes any sense.
Reply: Definitely. I don't go about trying to make a Flair/Steamboat match, I try to beat the guy in the least amount of time. My best time so far for beating a guy with similar stats is 57 seconds, pinning him.
So I mean. I would bet most people are just trying to have fun... I dunno.
In which case, you're basically talking about making a ufc game -which is what wrestling would be if it was not a performance. that's why I always said that making a wrestling "sim" was pretty much an oxymoron. you might as well make a video game out of doing a play or musical.
having said that, that jobber idea is kinda neat. i think street fighter 4 is implementing something like that where by you can choose to take hits (with a "special" block button) knowing that you're building up momentum for a furious retaliation attack.
This would be about the tenth time I've addressed the issue, but I'll swing my slogan around once more, because it's a topic very important to me.
You shouldn't need to TRY and have a good match. In Smackdown! games, I do. That means the game engine was poorly designed. Why? A good wrestling game engine would ensure that a well-balanced, entertaining match occurs, as a BY-PRODUCT of a player trying to win. The crux of the matter; an epic, entertaining match should occur by default - thanks to a good game engine - while the player's main objective is to win.
That's where Smackdown! games get it wrong for mine, and where I'm really hoping PWX is the ONE wrestling game to get it right.
[quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite]A good wrestling game engine would ensure that a well-balanced, entertaining match occurs, as a BY-PRODUCT of a player trying to win. The crux of the matter; an epic, entertaining match should occur by default - thanks to a good game engine - while the player's main objective is to win.[/quote]
If the game balances itself dynamically, depending on the stats of the wrestlers involved, I think this is possible. If a face's popularity is comparatively high enough, it would become more likely for them to reverse big moves if they've been on the receiving end. If not, they may lose what transpires to be a squash match, and should have faced a lesser opponent. Of course, game balancing like this would require crowd AI to feel effective.
[quote][cite] Zin5ki:[/cite][quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite]A good wrestling game engine would ensure that a well-balanced, entertaining match occurs, as a BY-PRODUCT of a player trying to win. The crux of the matter; an epic, entertaining match should occur by default - thanks to a good game engine - while the player's main objective is to win.[/quote]
If the game balances itself dynamically, depending on the stats of the wrestlers involved, I think this is possible. If a face's popularity is comparatively high enough, it would become more likely for them to reverse big moves if they've been on the receiving end. If not, they may lose what transpires to be a squash match, and should have faced a lesser opponent. Of course, game balancing like this would require crowd AI to feel effective.[/quote]
That's exactly the crux of what I'm hoping for. Not that EVERY match is a 30 minute epic battle with back-and-forth; only when it should be, such as 'Taker vs. Batista at Mania. For Taker vs. a pipsqueak, like Jamie Noble - because of their stats and rankings, as you stated - the match would be more akin to a squash match.
Let me tell you, I appreciate somebody understanding what I'm trying to communicate, because this point seems to have gone over other people's heads in the past. To me, thiss is probably the most important feature of a wrestling game, and none have struck gold with it just yet.
And that's why I'm such a mark for the King's Soul/King of Colosseum series so much, it's the closest thing I've experienced to a true "wrestling sim", in terms of match structure. I can have fantastic matches in other games, but I don't have to put a lot of effort into getting an epic encounter outta KOCII, because the engine and (more importantly) the AI seem custom built to do so.
It's by no means perfect, but it's a good base to improve on, IMO.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]The one thing about KoC/ Fire Pro is that (for better or for worse and a matter of opinion) they pretty much force you into a certain match structure.[/quote]
Something else worth looking at, which ties into the notion I've been whoring for months, is that many wrestling game communities will look for ways to make matches longer and better; such as KOCII with it's "2up, 2down." Basically that means defense goes up 2 points, and offense down 2 points. If you look at No Mercy on 64, you'll see the same; several codes and options to make matches last longer. The deeper wrestling game community wants this option in a game, quite badly, and yet no games have really offered this to any satisfactory level. All it would require is a simple sliding meter, for offense and defense - which actually has an effect, unlike Smackdown! games - and the problem would be on it's way to being solved.
Please, do tell me that the PWX team is giving this aspect of the game the attention it deserves. I might be jumping the gun - in that the basic mechanics are more important right now - but I believe the first step to superior gameplay is to have longer, more epic matches when they're called for.
I've heard people say "you've gotta make it a good match" before, and to be honest, I think that's the developers job, not mine.
Let me put it this way... I think to a limited extent, Pro Wrestling game developers have a right, almost a duty, to include some level of what we'd call "cheat code" in any other game.
I've thought about this myself... how would I code this? Well, I think I'd focus on the crowd. What's a 'face's job? To give the crowd what they want. What's a heel's job? To take it away. Thus I'd work this into the game somehow... a crowd tug-of-war. There would be a standard damage system included, and taking out a guy's knee over the course of a match is obviously going to create the opportunity to win, but ultimately, you've gotta win at the right time... when the crowd is "ready" for it, so to speak.
When this happens would depend on circumstances. Say, for instance, you're playing a Jeff Hardy type 'face against, for instance, a Mr. Kennedy. It's a standard back and forth match for a while, which keeps the crowd interested. Damage is all pretty low because no major moves have gotten off yet. Eventually both men are knocked out of the ring, and Kennedy boots you into the steps, as he is want to do. Now he takes control. The crowd mood changes to anxious... now they're nervous, they watching in hopes of the comeback.
This anxiety builds as Kennedy stays in control. The crowd grows more and more dispondant as he slowly works on your arms. Hold after hold wears you down. You, as a player, are spending your concentration trying to get back in the match, but the computer just isn't making that mistake you need to get in control.
Finally you get the timing right, and when Kennedy whips you into the corner, you moonsault off and bring him down. Crowd explodes, they're ready to see you win. Now you have to make a judgment call... do you A.) Go for the quick cover, hoping the crowd momentum will overcome the fact that Kennedy isn't that hurt or B.) Go for the Swanton, hoping the crowd would rather see the finisher than the quick win, and, that the extra damage done by the finisher will make up for the momentum loss for waiting to pin.
Any sort of outcome is possible here. The crowd "code" would adjust to the types of guys in the ring... in a squash "monster vs. jobber" match, they woudn't get too into it, and it would be all skill and damage, which would be hugely in favor of the monster (this would, of a career mode, increase the heel's "heat", and thus his ability to effect the crowd).
I think this kind of system would go a long way to creating a pro wrestling "Sim"... which I would define not as something that simulates pro wrestling, but something that simulates what pro wrestling simulates.
But here's the paradox. What if the person using Kennedy is just a vastly superior player than the person controlling hardy?
In your scenario, correct me if I'm wrong, the person controlling kennedy would have to let his opponent beat up on him just to elevate the crowd and make it interesting. That's something I just couldn't get into. That'd be like me playing a game in NHL where I'm winning 7-1 in the 2nd period and have to pull my goalie just so the crowd gets excited.
It's a fundamental difference between a competitive event, and a performance. No matter how you slice it, A wrestling game is a competitive version of something that's a performance.
Crowd reaction is like a separate game itself. I like the Fire Pro A way of addressing it in that they ask you what type of match you are trying to perform and then rating you afterwards. Personally, I play to win and if the match is exciting I prefer it to be because it was a legitimately long and hard fought battle. Still, no reason there couldn't be a crowd reaction system for those wanting to rate their matches.
[quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite][quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]The one thing about KoC/ Fire Pro is that (for better or for worse and a matter of opinion) they pretty much force you into a certain match structure.[/quote]
Something else worth looking at, which ties into the notion I've been whoring for months, is that many wrestling game communities will look for ways to make matches longer and better; such as KOCII with it's "2up, 2down." Basically that means defense goes up 2 points, and offense down 2 points. If you look at No Mercy on 64, you'll see the same; several codes and options to make matches last longer. The deeper wrestling game community wants this option in a game, quite badly, and yet no games have really offered this to any satisfactory level. All it would require is a simple sliding meter, for offense and defense - which actually has an effect, unlike Smackdown! games - and the problem would be on it's way to being solved.
Please, do tell me that the PWX team is giving this aspect of the game the attention it deserves. I might be jumping the gun - in that the basic mechanics are more important right now - but I believe the first step to superior gameplay is to have longer, more epic matches when they're called for.[/quote]
The big problem with the mods for these games is that they are done so poorly and confine you to specific sorts of matches, just like Dave was saying.
They more or less work by the logic of longer match = better match, which is ridiculous. I mean, the No Mercy code is essentially just giving the characters extra health to make the match longer, thats it. Changing the stats in KOC does the same thing. Really, I think that the VPW2 engine is a bit better than the KOC one, because its a bit more diverse. The KOC engine simulates New Japan heavyweight style and thats about it.
VPW2 can emulate anything, the only problem with the engine is just the speed of the spirit meters. If people aren't having longer matches in VPW2, its probably how the play games as opposed to how the game is. If you actually, you know, use weak grapples and weak strikes and build a match like an actual match, you can get 10 - 15 minute real time matches most of the time.
If you set the rating to a specific style of match, then it would stand to reason that fighting the match in that style would raise the rating? Ex.: the NJPW "Strong" rating style where you fight a Fire Pro match by building up your weak strikes to your weak grapples to your medium strikes and grapples to your strong moves and corner moves and top rope moves, being sure to throw in some pin attempts or submission attempts, to finally your finishing move/submission to get the win and the big rating. Especially if the match is nice and even, back and forth, and somehow lasts longer than 20-25 minutes.
Of course, "Showman" should probably be the last on the list because PWX's actual initial audience is generally sick and tired of the quick match between supposedly good wrestlers.
[quote][cite] action937:[/cite]But here's the paradox. What if the person using Kennedy is just a vastly superior player than the person controlling hardy?[/quote]
Then Kennedy will likely win. That's the nature of the game. I'm not saying that it's possible to translate the performance of wrestling into a game exactly, I'm saying that it'd be nice if the same types of finishes COULD happen. As it is, that can't happen, period.
[quote][cite] Spunk:[/cite][quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite][quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]The one thing about KoC/ Fire Pro is that (for better or for worse and a matter of opinion) they pretty much force you into a certain match structure.[/quote]
Something else worth looking at, which ties into the notion I've been whoring for months, is that many wrestling game communities will look for ways to make matches longer and better; such as KOCII with it's "2up, 2down." Basically that means defense goes up 2 points, and offense down 2 points. If you look at No Mercy on 64, you'll see the same; several codes and options to make matches last longer. The deeper wrestling game community wants this option in a game, quite badly, and yet no games have really offered this to any satisfactory level. All it would require is a simple sliding meter, for offense and defense - which actually has an effect, unlike Smackdown! games - and the problem would be on it's way to being solved.
Please, do tell me that the PWX team is giving this aspect of the game the attention it deserves. I might be jumping the gun - in that the basic mechanics are more important right now - but I believe the first step to superior gameplay is to have longer, more epic matches when they're called for.[/quote]
The big problem with the mods for these games is that they are done so poorly and confine you to specific sorts of matches, just like Dave was saying.
They more or less work by the logic of longer match = better match, which is ridiculous. I mean, the No Mercy code is essentially just giving the characters extra health to make the match longer, thats it. Changing the stats in KOC does the same thing. Really, I think that the VPW2 engine is a bit better than the KOC one, because its a bit more diverse. The KOC engine simulates New Japan heavyweight style and thats about it.
VPW2 can emulate anything, the only problem with the engine is just the speed of the spirit meters. If people aren't having longer matches in VPW2, its probably how the play games as opposed to how the game is. If you actually, you know, use weak grapples and weak strikes and build a match like an actual match, you can get 10 - 15 minute real time matches most of the time.[/quote]
Awarding more health helps in that a match won't end on an undeserving move, like a suplex. It gives time to hit one or even several finishers before the end of the match, and false finishes are a good basis for a solid, entertaining match. You're right though, in saying that longer matches aren't the only aspect of a good match; it's also the flow, the reversals, and how the match is appropriately even-matched or one-sided.