So Fire Pro Returns, despite the fanatic supporters and hype, failed to live up to even the most conservative sales expectations. What can we learn about this as we prepare to launch our first title? Did you see any mistakes in the way Fire Pro Returns was marketed that we could learn from?
Well, it really wasn't marketed or advertised much at all, was it? I wouldn't have even known that it was coming out if I didn't check out the gamefaqs message board for it. Also, it was marketed to be an alternative to a WWE game. The cover says it all: Triple H and Rey. Though, since everyone who loves the Smackdown games generally don't want to venture out and try new wrestling games (with most Smackdown fans, I'm sure there are some that are just the opposite). So, they probably saw the game as a cheap knock off of Smackdown vs. Raw.
So, you need to do something that stands out and doesn't look like an imitation of Smackdown. I don't know much about advertising or marketing, so I don't really have any advice with that. But, people need to know that the game exists and that it is different from the current wrestling products.
It's not about how Fire pro was advertised I think It's about how WWE was advertised cuz everyone desided to buy SvR 2008 instead so I don't think It's FPW's fault
I agree with thegreatdanoc I don't remember seeing a single magazine ad or t.v. spot for Fire Pro. But that was just one of the reasons I think Fire Pro didn't sell. I know some people hate it when I say this: 2-D games just don't sell well in today's market. I'm not saying the graphics have to be cutting edge or look as good as Smackdown's but 2-D just will not cut it. Also wasn't Fire Pro released in 05 in Japan? Those are the things that I think hurt Fire Pro, I'll think of more stuff later.
1. 2-D game 2. No advertising 3. It was already two years old before being released here.
Fire pro is too much of an enigma. It can't be used as any type of benchmark. You're talking about an older 2D game for an old system from Japan. It was only 15 bucks, so they already have a perceieved value that it's not worth much. Plus hardcore wrestling fans already bought it. It takes dedication to buy a game twice - English or not. Even though I did lol.
I would look at TNA much more closely. Note what they release (pics/videos), the timing of the releases, articles, guestimates on budgets and budget distribution, etc. Then when it comes out, cross-reference the success/failure with how they advertised.
Aha, Fire Pro had no advertisement at all. In fact, I was pleased as piss when I found out that it was being released, it kinda threw me for a loop for a bit. But really, the lack of a marketing campaign and the just plain terrible box art hurt the sales. Box art is very important and having a not Triple H and not Rey Mysterio drawn by a 9 year old just isn't very enticing.
Price was too cheap for essentially a first time outing on an American home system.
Steep learning curve for anyone who may have picked it up, even a game as easy as Smackdown has a tutorial you can watch to learn how to play. Fire Pro could really use it.
And the fact that all the wrestlers are real, but look like knock offs, just doesn't help anything.
2D wrestling game vs. 3D wrestling game. It was out on the same system, with the same features (customization, a few gimmick matches, a management mode) and outdated graphics. I like Fire Pro Returns, but there wasn't much to differentiate it from the competition. A few more moves, I suppose. Mostly it's a step backwards. There's more space for created wrestlers but you can't help thinking you'd rather have that in 3D.
The TNA game's got a few things to make it different, from what I've seen. An alternate roster of name wrestlers, a different ring, modern graphics. It's either a step forward or a step sideways. Either it's a more enjoyable experience or it's the same as the WWE games.
PWX's difference is pretty much that it's on the computer, which for the average buyer probably doesn't mean much, but can make all the difference. It's pretty much the only reason I'm for it. You could have as many created wrestlers as you want and aren't required to keep anyone. That was my biggest annoyance with No Mercy. You had a bunch of people on the roster simply taking up space. It's either a step backwards or a step forwards. Either the graphics are outdated, the animations aren't as good and there's not enough expandability or the graphics are outdated, the animations aren't as good but there's nothing to get bored with and none of that's set in stone.
I mean, which would you rather have? Something that's flawed and static or something that's flawed and changeable? Nothing tries to get better by staying the same, not even nature.
If Fire Pro cost too much money for people to buy it, how can we charge for Uprising. A lot of things hurt FPR. Not easy to play right off the bat, atrocious menus, bad cover art, 2-D. However I think what that says is that if a game does not appear to be up to a certain level of quality, and that goes for everything, menus, easiness to learn, etc, then people will not pay for it. FPR has its redeeming factors, and its super deep, but people don't want to pay money for something just to suffer through bad menus, tough to learn slow matches, and absolutely no visual appeal. I thinkwhat we need to realize is that we need to build an over all sound foundation for PWX and we can not rely on any redeeming factors to justify charging people for a sub par game.
Yes FPR was cheap, and you could argue its value. Still, I took the thing back and got credit towards a better game. Cheaper than a better game does not guarantee sales, not when people could put the money your game cost towards a better but more expensive game. You also have to realize that there a tons of cheap games online, there are tons of cheap used games at stores, and a ton of great free ware games. When you think about it people will spend the money on a really good wrestling if they want a wrestling game, but when they want a cheap game they will buy the best cheapest cheap game out there so you can not count on genre loyalty.
I think its a mistake to think anything warrants charging any amount of money for a game unless it is really a good game that has fairly universal appeal. FP has been rocking in Japan for a long time because theres a large established user base. Its also a cheap game to make when you dont have to localize it. However, from a North American outlook, it was a game that counted on wrestling gamers buying it just because its a wrestling game and I think thats a huge mistake. Games sell because there good games, or because they have great marketing (i.e. WWE license). You can not count on people to buy something just because its a certain genre.
So I think we need to completely free ourselves from the assumption that wrestling fans or wrestling gamers will buy PWX because its a wrestling game. The people who we could count on doing that will have a TNA game to buy, a WWE game to buy, and a large collection of old great games like No Mercy to keep them occupied. With the same old shit coming out in this genre "its like no mercy" wont get you anywhere when everyone that would appeal to has No Mercy and a new WWE game every year. Then there are the import gamers, the one group of people who would have gotten FPR, too bad they already had it. They also have KOC, and other great games to buy. So no, I do not think that the people who will buy PWX because its a wrestling game will amount to financial success.
So, expose as many people as possible to as much free and truly inexpensive content, and make that content as appealing to as many types of gamers as possible and with the smallest possible learning curve. From here on out develop a fun game, and let people play it. I think we need to make a game that doesn't alienate one type of user so it can make another type of user willing to pay more than the games worth on a wider market.
I'm probably one of the biggest fans of Firepro here. Have been for a long time.
Advertising was terrible. Box Art was cheap. Problems with the game being available when it first came out hurt it. Most people that really wanted it had to order it on-line. You could NOT finds it in stores the first week it came out. Hell...most game stores didn't even KNOW it was coming out, and those that did, didn't know if it was going to be at their store or not.
Add to that the price, and people who didn't know about the game would think it is a CHEAP game, therefore it can't be good. Same for some of the places that did sell it. Dollar General in particular. When I think of that store, I do NOT think about video games, and if I see video games there I don't think about buying them.
All of that hurt it.
I know that Agetec was pleased with the first 2 weeks sales. They were over their projections. However, after that the game didn't move very well.
seems like i'd be repeating many things already said. lack of mainstream marketing (tv and game mag ads, mostly), release on an "old" console, "outdated" 2d style trying to compete w/"slick, ever-improving 3d styles," crappy layouts, etc are probably only a smattering of what may amount to potential DOZENS of universal concurrences resulting in the lack of sales for fpr. punkdraco probably said it all best.
I agree with most of what is already said and ditto on MONITOR's comment. In my opinion play it with fan base. See how that goes. With marketing (no expert here)..go with publishers like Tips & Tricks again and so forth...try to hit Gamespot again...Spread your love around in places like so...Has far as a voice in spreading the word of the game...that is our job as loyal wrestling gamers. We {Believe}.
"Did you see any mistakes in the way Fire Pro Returns was marketed that we could learn from?"
It was MARKETED??? I must've missed that part. If it hadn't been for the WGU newsletter, I wouldn't have known about it, and therefore wouldn't have bought it.
It was also made for an essentially dead system, which was questionable timing, but that might not have been as much a matter of choice as a matter of availability.
Well, to be honest. Like others have said, I don't see Fire Pro, as good as it is, as the benchmark of alternate interest in the genre. Namely, for all the reasons mentioned about Fire Pro and in addition, the fact every alternative to the WWE games haven't been approached on an equal playing field since dare I say it, WCW was in business. I think for any game to make a dent, it has be done on the same level and I don't even know that the TNA game will crack it at all.
Every wrestling game so far has taken a jaded tongue-in-cheek approach and even PWX, I believe is taking itself too lightly. How can the genre survive if companies not only poke fun at the subject matter, while telling us it's a light-hearted approach, yet taking our money for half-assed features and gameplay for a casual experience. The Wii version of Smackdown '08 is exactly what I mean.
I agree with a handful of the other posts. Fire Pro's failure to succeed in the US was due to no marketing, and low availability.
It was a good game. I picked it up for 2 or 3 people as Christmas gifts, and I've heard back from them saying how much they like playing it; and none of them have even heard of Fire Pro Wrestling before. But it was difficult to find, and from what I've seen it was only made for the PS2 in an era when gaming has largely gone to the new age consoles or PCs.
Did I mention it was difficult to find? I went to at least 5 different game stores spanning a 2 1/2 driving distance over the course of my travels one week, and I could only find them at one store; EB Games. They had one of them in the glass case turned sideways to where you could only see it's side label, and I just happened to catch a glimpse of it as I was browsing through. Sad thing is, I found it in the smallest market I shopped in. My prediction: Before you know it, it'll be a downloadable game on PS3 and Xbox Live; cause they simply didn't market it in any form for mass local purchases.
So, if you don't advertise properly, you should at least try to get an in-store display at a chain store of some kind for a week or two. At least then you'll still be recognized by those who are social shoppers who frequent malls and places of that nature. Also, consider the free promotions you can get from word of mouth at wrestling events, or by setting up a playable display where you can get permissions that can potentially allow you to directly move some copies of your game to fans that are interested with the money. Give one to a radio station as a give-away to a random caller with a correct answer to a question to get some airplay with a minimal loss of value. Use You-Tube to show off highlight footage from gameplay that is convincing of it's fighting control, AI, and playability.
Do those things and constantly reference to them so there is a link between all of them and you can have a cheap form of marketing which could easilly prove benificial to the game's release. And if all else fails, convert it over to PS3 and Xbox 360 control mapping as cheaply as possible and try to get your money back over time as a downloadable game in a couple other specific markets with users that might not have computers.
The best thing you guys can do with Pro Wrestling X is advertise like crazy. There is a market for it, look at the first Def Jam game if I remember correctly it sold really well. Is there a way to find out how much it sold? Also I wouldn't just look at wrestling games for research. A pefect example is All-Pro Football 2K8 it was a football game without the NFL teams or players. It failed when it went up against Madden and was 19.99 in like a month after it's release. The thing is that there were magazine ads and tv spots and it still failed. Pro Wrestling X is kinda like All-Pro 2K8 you guys are trying to offer a better wrestling game and are going up against the WWE games. All-Pro 2K8 was trying to offer a better football game than Madden. So why did 2k games fail? That might be worth looking into.
2-D is my biggest gripe with Pro Returns. I'm a pretty hardcore wrestling gamer, but I just won't pick up a 2-D game. In 1997? Sure. 2008? Not a chance. Call me fickle, but I don't think the graphics should suffer THAT much in exchange for solid gameplay.
I'm not even sure what marketting would entail. Commercials? Tie-ins? Magazine ads? Do people even read magazines anymore? Those sponsored flash ads you see on Gamespot and etcetera? The only time I notice a new game's out when either someone I know mentions it or it's in the news (gaming news or possibly the actual news).
PWX probably doesn't have enough money for more than sponsored links.
The best bet is to get some unwarranted hype going and the only way to do that is to offer some sort of revolutionary aspect that no other game of its type has. I'm not even sure what that would be for a wrestling game and it's way too late to throw it in now.
Of course I'm probably just being cynical. How many games didn't get any hype and did well? How many games had lots of hype and didn't sell at all? The only ones that seem to get anywhere through massive advertising are the big franchises that people already love.
Thinking about it, Its been pretty easy to find in my area. I think one of the things that happened was that out of the three copies that stores had on average, two were used and I am guessing that those two copies where being sold in returned. Not only does that mean that people saw a new game already being returned, but those not discouraged by that fact who bought it used put the money into Game Stop rather than Agetech. 10 people could buy Fire Pro but if only 3 or 4 of those sales were new official sales only show 3 or 4 sales. Also, one returned game could be sold and returned many many times.
So I think the biggest problem, hate to say this, is that people probably didn't like the all holy Fire Pro. I really doubt that there was any word of mouth generated outside the established, tapped out user base. You cant blame that on 2d or marketing, if someone bought it they were willing to look past that, but if they returned it they just didn't like it. So why is that?
Lets face it. WWE games sell because of their license. Outside of the hardcore wrestling gamers who buy WWE games because they need a fix, WWE sells because it recreates the WWE experience, not because they make the best wrestling games. WWE games are catered to people who want to see WWE wrestlers doing WWE moves in WWE matches with all the frills of WWE style production. SD doesnt sell because its a great game, if it ever had we would not have PWX. Now I am willing to say that WWE games are a great product, it caters to a brand specific product while making it as arcade style fun as possible.
Fire Pro sold in Japan for much the same reason. The Japanese market has very strong franchise loyalty, and if you have been playing Fire Pro for 20 years, and if was an alternative to the great 3d wrestling games in Japan, it would be fun. Fans of FPR in Japan have been playing the game so long that they know the menus, they know the drawbacks, the know how to make the most of that game. In Japan the fans of that game would not have to deal with the steep learning curve.
American gamers had a huge learning curve. Rather than being able to get into a match, you had to struggle with the controls and all the unforgiving nuances of playing that game. Of course it sold like crap.
I think that what PWX can learn from this is that people do not want to frustrated, but they do want to be immersed in a game. If you make a game that people can really get into, but that isn't frustrating, its a winning formula no matter what genre your talking about.
So WWE games cater to fans of their well established franchise, just as Fire Pro did. I think we need to really understand what not having an established license means. It does mean that we can not count on any established user base to be happy with PWX. It also means that PWX is free to just make the best game possible.
So if you just skipped ahead to the end cause your sick of me, I think PWX should just focus on being a fun game and not rely on any established formulas for success because as far as wrestling games go they have all counted on an established franchise. We need to make sure that anyone who picks this game up has fun, regardless of there status as a wrestling fan.
Edit;
Just another thought, maybe FPR did poorly because people who had heard of it heard so much from its fans that they had unrealistic expectations. Also, did anyone else get the feeling that no one would play this game with you when you bought it? That is not a good feeling.
You're all talking about advertising FPW But what would FPW lean on in advertisment? Like you've already said 2-d? 2 year old game? There's no ground for advertising.Let's face it: Graphics suck and For some people gameplay is "hard to learn"
I'd also have to say that the biggest problem with FPR's marketing would be the complete lack of it.
Look, we Internet fans are great and all, but we aren't exactly kingmakers. Just take a look at Snakes on a Plane, or the Ron Paul campaign, or a million other examples. We'll go to bat for you, we'll buy in and help promote you where we can, but there's something to be said for more traditional forms of marketing. You guys do have a big advantage over FPR because you've already been featured in a few gaming magazines. That gets your name in front of gamers, many of whom probably like your unique story.
Fire Pro was also hurt by the fact that it's 2-D. It's sad, but true. Unfortunately, you can't encapsulate great gameplay in a simple screenshot the way you can with great graphics. To the average gamer looking at screenshots on the back of the box, FPR looks like a Super NES game. It did well in Japan because the series has a great reputation there, but in the states, it has no reputation to speak of, and it doesn't make a good first impression in today's marketplace. Here again you guys have an advantage; your graphics may not look like Crysis or anything, but they're very modern 3D and visually stunning in its own right.
There's also the problem that FPR came into a very crowded marketplace. Not only does the PS2 have a ton of wrestling games already, but it came out the same day as SDvR08! Frankly, that release date alone doomed it. Here again you guys have the advantage; I think that the last PC-based wrestling game was a port of the X-Box's Raw 2, so one can't argue that that platform is crowded. Just don't release it anywhere near November, and you'll be fine.
As well, many gamers have been conditioned to believe that "budget title = cheap crap", and for good reason -- most budget titles are cheap, derivative, exploitative, clumsy, buggy, and generally god-awful. Unfortunately, can't help you there -- PWX is a bit of a niche title, and I really can't see it commanding AAA-title prices either. All we can hope here is that, if you do everything else right, that this won't become a sticking point. You'll need to get as many reviews of this as possible in the hands of gamers through the gaming websites, magazines, etc. so that they can see that this is one game that does it right, despite the budget pricing and accompanying stigma.
Well HBK, I think you are really underestimating the power of word of mouth. There was a lot of buzz for Fire Pro on the internet. Problem is that there has been that for years. The people interested in FPR by word of mouth already bought it, well imported it. I think the problem is that the market was tapped out. Well the market was also tiny due to the fact that the game was flawed for an American release. However, as other have pointed out, those flaws would have been there no matter how much marketing you threw at people.
Look at a game like Katamari Damaci (sp?). No established user base. Does not fit into genres well Does not follow any genre specific success formulas. No attention grabbing features. No eye popping visual moments. Still, it was so freaking fun that people, including game industry writers, got behind it and it did very well.
What caused the FPR US downfall? 1.It was between the transition of PS2 to PS3. If the FPR game was advertised for the PS3 maybe it would win just a little more customers. 2.Advertisement? There was only one little ad I saw on the Agetec site - nowhere else. Only the FPW Fan Site, PWX forum and some more wrestling communities were with the game, other people didn't even hear about it. 3.And the biggest reason IMO - SvR 2008. The WWE franchise is being marketed EVERYWHERE - TV, newspapers, internet, all the media. You can hear about WWE's game everywhere. Even when people were looking for the FPR game, Gamestop employees thought we meant SvR 2008. And at the time SvR was being released, FPR was struggling to find stores. 4.Let's face it - FPR is something like an underground project. Only hardcore fans can even understand the difficulty of the game. It's DAMN hard! It took me about a week to start defeating my opponents. Another week to master the K1 style of play. Noone could play it, nor had the chance. That's why IMO FPR was a fail. Only we think FRP is the best wrestling game for now...
As of the question "Will PWX repeat the mistakes FPW did?" I guess we will have to see about that with the Uprising title coming up soon I hope But they way I see it - Dave gets lots of donations (big donations,too) and fanbase is growing... I only hope PWX crushes all competition with Uprising...
Totally agree with SIRDINGUS. Fire Pro is the Undisputed King of all 2-D pro wrestling games and should not be compared to a 3-D. The best 3-D wrestling game can still be overthrown by the way it has in content and by getting the word out. Letting people know that this game has quality and quantity and will continue to grow and get better, will appeal to people. I believe, if a developer stays in contact with potential users or hardcore wrestling gamers ( on the internet), the chances are that the developer will have a cult following--people will have a passion on passing the word around about the game. (just some points thats' all)
Damn, seems like most of us are more than a little ticked off at the lack of marketing support. Hell, even the GBA Fire Pro at least got a full page add in Pro Wrestling Illustrated.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]Damn, seems like most of us are more than a little ticked off at the lack of marketing support. Hell, even the GBA Fire Pro at least got a full page add in Pro Wrestling Illustrated.[/quote]
Not only did it get that ad, it was also a pimped game for the GBA launch. Remember seeing the early ads for the launch of GBA? They highlighted most of the launch titles in a big church scene, and a choir of pro-wrestlers was a big part of it. Seeing as though there weren't any pro-wrestling games for GBA for a long time, its pretty safe to say they were pimping Fire Pro.
I think a big problem is that it didn't get media coverage. I think as big as magazine ads, TV spots, banners are, the most important part in gaming now is to pay off the gaming media so they'll do tons of features and a thorough review to. I mean, Kane and Lynch was an awful game that sold well because it had all of the right media paid off; they had 'exclusive' features for the game on IGN and Gamespot, they had hype articles in big magazines, they did the usual just leak video footage to G4 and the web as opposed to giving them a hands on view of the game. They knew the game sucked, but knew if they sunk enough money into it, people would buy it. Guess what? They did.
Fire Pro R was released for a last generation console right at the end of its last big run. While its true that maybe even 6 months ago the PS2 was still getting some good games released for it, that was its last hurrah. FPR came out after the last hurrah, and at this point, there was so little in the way of media coverage for PS2 or any 'new' games that it was dead on arrival. The timing was just bad, and they just had no way to sink any money into marketing for it.
It has nothing to do with being 2d or difficult, and everything to do with being released on an outdated system with no marketing and no media coverage.
Fire Pro is failing for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is it's complete lack of marketing, and it's decade old graphics. I think America is ready for a good independant wrestling game, but whatever is released is going to be competing with smackdown, no doubt about it. Without at least being 3D I have a hard time seeing how any wrestling game can stand up to the industry giants.
Sure, some games can do the 2D look and get away with it, but you you think people would buy Manhunt on the PS2 if it was 2D? How about Virtua Fighter? The benchmark for these games is set, and if you don't at least meet that benchmark you're going to have a hard time selling decently, I think.
Presentation is important! I know it isn't a make or break issue for many of us, but for the average consumer it is essential.
Great discussion guys. I also got some great responses to this topic via email that I'll share with you in the next newsletter. Personally, I think I put a little too much faith in Fire Pro to make much of a mark on the mainstream. It is what it is and I'm just damn glad we have it for our own greedy little needs.
i remember a recent convo w/my brother (fullMETAL on these boards) that he would totally buy FPR for xbox if it allowed using custom soundtracks for wrestler themes and match bgs. he said he'd even buy a 360 if FPR came out on 360 and had this feature. ATM he's satisfied w/FPR ps2 while waiting for pwx.