Ok, here's an odd question considering it's not really important at this stage. Thing is, we've got these moves from the balcony working but in order to do them you have to beat your opponent to death so you have enough time to run up the stairs and jump off. It's not really good for anything other than a Fire Pro style post match beat down on a dead opponent. It would be much more useful if you could set the move up while you were both fighting on the balcony and somehow get your opponent thrown to the ring below from there. My concern is that type of thing would give the game a too over the top Mortal Kombat feel (and I hear we already have another wrestling game coming that will suffer that fate). So how would you propose we design it so that it doesn't seem too outlandish? I guess the fall wouldn't be any worse than falling from the top of a cage or Cell but the thing is the opponent would need to fall down as well as back about eight feet to land in the ring.
I don't know, we're treading pretty cheesy ground here unless we can come up with an acceptable solution. What do you guys think?
How often do people do spots like this? Once every 3-4 years? Jeff Hardy's recent dive off the titantron, Mick Foley's dive off the cell, Shane's dive off the titantron.. how many years are there between those? I wouldn't worry too much about it, but I'd say have both options instead of one or the other ;)
Maybe do something that keeps the opponent down automatically once you start climbing the stairs, but still give them the ability to reverse or be picked up by other people in the ring from that point on?
Woo, been a WHILE since I've posted anywhere in PWX-land. But this question intrigued me.
The only reason anyone stays down long enough to get hit with a balcony spot in "real" life is...well...kayfabe. So, just go with it. Add in some sort of artificial trigger where if a guy begins climbing up the balcony stairs while his opponent is down, the opponent stays put, provided he's sustained a reasonable amount of damange (so no one can hit a snap mare 30 seconds in and head for the stairs).
My problem with the toss-em-from-the-balcony approach, aside from it being overblown, is that these spots are almost never set up that way. So having it be the only possible method of doing it in-game takes the PWX match further away from a recreation of an actual match, which should be the goal.
I have to agree with Byght. His solution makes the most sense to me...as long as it's not too hard to code that sort of set up in, I think it would go a long way towards actually recreating the type of spot we are talking about here.
yeah, if someone's thrown from a balcony, that's usually the whole spot. i'd say do the trigger thing or just don't do anything at all. the more rare it is, the cooler it is.
I think that the 2 options should be in game like if you haven't beaten the guy enough and u start climbing the stairs your opponent starts following u-stands up and starts running- and then you get a balcony fight if u push him down to the mat you do your move if not well let's just say not
[quote][cite] marlasinger:[/cite]yeah, if someone's thrown from a balcony, that's usually the whole spot. i'd say do the trigger thing or just don't do anything at all. the more rare it is, the cooler it is.[/quote]
Good point. Very good point. So it sounds like we're almost all in agreement that we should make the opponent stay down for the spot and only give him the option of possible evading at the last moment?
[quote][cite] Byght:[/cite]Woo, been a WHILE since I've posted anywhere in PWX-land. But this question intrigued me.
The only reason anyone stays down long enough to get hit with a balcony spot in "real" life is...well...kayfabe. So, just go with it. Add in some sort of artificial trigger where if a guy begins climbing up the balcony stairs while his opponent is down, the opponent stays put, provided he's sustained a reasonable amount of damange (so no one can hit a snap mare 30 seconds in and head for the stairs).
My problem with the toss-em-from-the-balcony approach, aside from it being overblown, is that these spots are almost never set up that way. So having it be the only possible method of doing it in-game takes the PWX match further away from a recreation of an actual match, which should be the goal.[/quote]
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite] My concern is that type of thing would give the game a too over the top Mortal Kombat feel (and I hear we already have another wrestling game coming that will suffer that fate).[/quote]
Would that be TNA iMPACT
Heres my idea for this thing, theirs never a bad over the top thing in games or wrestling. How about hip tossing them off the balcony or outsiders edge?
[quote][cite] Byght:[/cite] Add in some sort of artificial trigger where if a guy begins climbing up the balcony stairs while his opponent is down, the opponent stays put, provided he's sustained a reasonable amount of damange (so no one can hit a snap mare 30 seconds in and head for the stairs).[/quote]
I actually wouldnt mind both. I think the trigger idea is perfect and could possibly be used for other things. You'd just have to determine whether or not any other wrestler would then be able to attack or pick up the fallen wrestler until his focus wrestler made it to the top.
but let's be honest with ourselves. arcade/sim fans alike. If I throw someone off a balcony into the ring, what's my next refelx? walk down the stairs? :)
How in a royal rumble you irish whip someone, the clothesline them from the top. Whip them outside the railing(on a small lip) Make that where you do some moves from(non-flipping ones)
The problem I always had with some of the older Smackdown games that allowed for a player to climb on top of the titantron to perform a move is that the opponent would ALWAYS stand up before hitting it, or else you would fly over the oppenent and be pretty much dead. This also is a problem even with the new games with flying moves off of a ladder. The opponent seems to always get up while you are in the air.
So, if I were to do the balcony dive to a downed opponent, I would prefer that they stay down long enough to hit it :) Now, as already mentioned, the best way seems to be having the opponent hurt enough where if you climb up they won't be getting up unless it is a roll at the last second. But, just standing up is very unrealistic. They need to at least roll/dodge somehow.
As far as throwing the opponent off of the balcony, I say it is fine. But, maybe have it where it is very difficult to perform it. I don't really know what that means, though. One idea that I just thought of though is a type of reversal that would result in the person attempting to throw an opponent off, instead they would reverse it and send the other wrestler off. An example would be someone having the opponent up against the railing and they back up and run at them to perform a clothesline, instead they get a back body drop off the balcony.
[quote][cite] thegreatdaneoc:[/cite]So, if I were to do the balcony dive to a downed opponent, I would prefer that they stay down long enough to hit it :) Now, as already mentioned, the best way seems to be having the opponent hurt enough where if you climb up they won't be getting up unless it is a roll at the last second. But, just standing up is very unrealistic. They need to at least roll/dodge somehow.[/quote]
This is essential, because you're correct in that it's only at this time that a wrestler will reverse/dodge the move. Well thought out.
[quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite][quote][cite] thegreatdaneoc:[/cite]So, if I were to do the balcony dive to a downed opponent, I would prefer that they stay down long enough to hit it :) Now, as already mentioned, the best way seems to be having the opponent hurt enough where if you climb up they won't be getting up unless it is a roll at the last second. But, just standing up is very unrealistic. They need to at least roll/dodge somehow.[/quote]
This is essential, because you're correct in that it's only at this time that a wrestler will reverse/dodge the move. Well thought out.[/quote]
They can put their knees up also
You should make balcony breakable, it can result into a K.O
You could also make the balcony dive a special move. Maybe just a front grapple, perform the special move, grappler A gives grappler B the Twist of Fate runs up the stairs and drops a Swanton from the balcony all as part of his special move. Other than that the idea about keeping the guy down automatically sounds good. Also, it has been a while since I played the PWX design document (WWF No Mercy), but as I recall if you beat the crap out of a guy long enough it eventually takes him like 2 mins of button mashing to get up. I'm sure it wouldn't take more than about 30 seconds to run up the balcony and dive off. That would do away with the whole automated deal and keep the realism.
For any gamer who hasn't been waiting for years to do a balcony dive, the fore mentioned solutions for allowing this move to be done in a one on one match would likely seem cheap. For anyone having this move done to them, how will it not be frustrating once the novelty wears off?
I think you either have to keep balcony dives as a salt in the wound post beat down move until you get more players on the screen or you make a decision to throw off match flow and hurt how the game plays.
I agree with PD on the most part, but the thing for me is that you wouldn't really see a balcony dive in a standard one on one match anyway, (kayfabe) there'd be a countout or DQ as you were trying to set it up. Maybe in a hardcore match of some kind though it might be appropriate, and gives you the simple solution of having one really massive, possibly easily reversible (dependant on health, momentum, whatever you're using) weapon shot to keep someone down long enough to hit a balcony dive. It even plays in to your after match beatdown, give them a battering with sticks, then leap from the balcony.
[quote][cite] smblion:[/cite]How often do people do spots like this? Once every 3-4 years?[/quote]
Agreed. This QOTW really shouldn't concern a lot of people. The dictionary definition of "wrestling" has little to do with this sort of stunt. I don't mind how balcony dives are handled so long as there is an option to disable them, akin to a weapons on/off option.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite][quote][cite] marlasinger:[/cite]yeah, if someone's thrown from a balcony, that's usually the whole spot. i'd say do the trigger thing or just don't do anything at all. the more rare it is, the cooler it is.[/quote]
Good point. Very good point. So it sounds like we're almost all in agreement that we should make the opponent stay down for the spot and only give him the option of possible evading at the last moment?[/quote]
YES this is the best & simplest solution to solve this thing.
Just make it nearly impossible. That might mean admitting developing it so soon was a mistake but thats better than making it an even bigger mistake. The only option I can think of is to build a gimmick match or mini game around it so that it wont screw up the game itself.
Still no matter how you balance the move itself making it possible to set up the move will ruin how the game plays. For this game to be a success outside of hardcore wrestling fans, or to not play like an arcade WWE game, match flow, pacing and balance will need to be more important than one cool move. I can accept that a balcony dive will be in the game and I'm fine with people having to try really hard to set it up, but lets not bend the game around this feature.
After reviewing some of the images, the gap between the balcony and the ring isn't that far at all. It wouldn't be at all unbelievable to see some moves performed from the balcony to the ring such as an Awesome Bomb, Hip Toss, Gorilla Press Slam or even a suplex. If you were to Hip Toss someone over the balcony to the ring it would be a perfect setup for the dive and you wouldn't have any of the annoyances or cheapness of the "can't move if someone is running up the stairs" idea. The crew probably already has some moves like the Awesome Bomb lined up for the balcony anyway and they already have the ability to dive from it so this is probably the easiest way.
i don't know if someone mentioned it, but you could just freeze p2 on the mat once the ani for climbing the stairs starts once you've reached the balcony he'll be unfroze and if he was beat badly enough he'll stay down while you jump, if not you'll do the jump to a standing opp, with the chance of missing of course.
I strongly disagree with the idea of "freezing" a lying down opponent when you start scaling the stairs. That's just way too gimmicky.
Doing a splash off a balcony onto someone lying down in the ring is SUPPOSED to be difficult to pull off. The only way you should be able to pull that off is if you beat your opponent to a bloody pulp so you have enough time to make your way up to the balcony.
Once we have the full version of PWX with 4 player support, we'll be able to have one person wait on top of the balcony while his partner knocks down their opponent in the ring and prepares him for a splash.
Since the demo only supports 2 player matches (correct me if I am wrong), we'll still be able to knock our opponent off the balcony and immediately follow up with a splash.
Don't force anything into the game that isn't natural. The point of PWX was to get away from wrestling games that are too over the top and replace realism with gimmicks. If you want to be able to do a bunch of balcony-to-ring moonsaults, then go pick up Backyard Wrestling or Smackdown.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to jump off the balcony and land on someone in the ring. But I think if it's too easy to perform this move, the novelty will wear off very fast. Making it hard to pull off will only add to the "HOLY S***" factor when you do pull it off.
I don't mean to sound harsh towards anyone, I'm just trying to make a point. Remember why this project started in the first place.
[quote][cite] thrash632:[/cite] Don't force anything into the game that isn't natural. The point of PWX was to get away from wrestling games that are too over the top and replace realism with gimmicks.[/quote]
Agreed. I maintain interest in this project solely because of the possibility that it will at some point focus on realism, If not due to the developers then due to the fanbase.
I wouldn't mind being able to fight on top. Maybe the spot should be you throw the guy off then can wait and do a move, either when he gets up or when hes lying there?
i'm not forcing anything unnatural, it's wrestling we're talking about, people stay down preping for a sell for more than a minute, so having someone twist in pain in the ring isn't unnatural.
plus i mentioned that he should only do this when you beat him to a certain level. (read everything next time) and if you didn't beat him so badly he'll roll out of the way while you're in mid air allowing you to crush and burn, or lift his knees up so you will land on them, hence the term high risk, because if you miss this one p2 will have an almost certain win.
how many times have you seen rvd\benoit\any other wrestler with a flying finisher, go for it and miss and the other guy wins? either by pinfall or by doing his finisher on them before they recover.
and about fighting on the balcony, you should have a part where there's no rail that way you can irish whip your opp, he'll stagger like in nm when he's about to fall either from the table or from the stage, and you can dropkick or use any other major strike on him to launch him to the ring.
My one problem with the "throwing someone off a balcony so you can jump on them" approach follows. You do not give players a horribly paced, emotionally uninvolved game through way of cheap, gimmicky dives off of balcony's. Instead you give players an emotionally uninvolved game through way of cheap, gimmicky throws off of balcony's.
Let us now examine an undeniable fact that is all too important to this project. This is a wrestling game we all want to play. We want to play a wrestling game because we want to be entertained and wrestling can be entertaining. The fun part of watching wrestling is that its like watching a fight but if it was pretty much the best fight ever. Great wrestling is great not for the moves but for the matches.
We don't watch wrestling because the moves are cool or the crappy story lines may not be crappy. We watch wrestling because its can tell a fantastic stories. How many cultures have told story's of battles and heroes? The best wrestlers have always gotten into the story they have been telling. Thats why what separates the best wrestling from everything else. What I suggest is that we embrace the fact that this is a wrestling game. Lets people play a fun game about the best in pro wrestling.
Lets have the dives, lets have the moves, but let them be a tool for letting people get into trying to win a match that tells a good enough story for people to get into the pro wrestling. The more people can get into this game, and feel like its real and the less there concerned about the fact that its wrestling the more fun will be had. So what if pro wrestlings fake, so are movies, so are plays, but then again so are video games.
In the end, this is a game where you take part in wrestling matches. Lets try to actually make the whole match fun.
If you must, I suggest adding a place on the balcony where both players can climb onto. Both players must make themselves go onto this step, or something. If they agree to do that, they can agree to brawl with the small chance of this leading to a fall onto the ring, which can then lead to dive who's chances of success are determined by the nature of the fall. No staggering please.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite] If you must, I suggest adding a place on the balcony where both players can climb onto. Both players must make themselves go onto this step, or something. If they agree to do that, they can agree to brawl with the small chance of this leading to a fall onto the ring, which can then lead to dive who's chances of success are determined by the nature of the fall. No staggering please.[/quote]
Thing is, I really don't want to devote any more time to this aspect of the game than we have already. That being said, it's there and we're not going to take it back so we might as well address it in a way that makes it relevant to the gameplay without being the focus of it. I'm looking for the simplest way to make this aspect of the game fit comfortably into the grand scheme of things.
Quick little story though (take it for what it's worth) I recently did a presentation where I played Uprising for a room full of people including executives and professional wrestlers. I showed them the different grapple positions, apron grapple, weapons, etc. that I was very proud of and got a politely warm response. Jumped off the balcony...biggest pop of the entire presentation.
no shock there. PunkDraco with all due respect, wrestling games aren't like wrestling, you don't give a damn about the story, the only thing you do care about is winning so it's basically a fighting game in that aspect.
i don't think anyone ever tried (unless they're really bored) to have a wrestling match on any game just to get a good story through. the games are actually kind of a "what if" universe for wrestling gamers. like what if wrestling could be real?
take the average joe, give him a wrestling game, you think he'll try to go for the signature moves of the wrestler? or send a message using some move? no he'll find the best way (most of the time with weapons or ring parts) to beat the snot out of the guy, make him bleed.
if he's really bored he can do this for a very long time sometimes not caring about winning, just having fun doing what he can't legally do in real life, and that's channel his anger via violence.
and since this game is supposed to sell to everyone and not just wrestling fan, i say stick to the spirit of previous wrestling games.
[quote][cite] undertaker666:[/cite]no shock there. PunkDraco with all due respect, wrestling games aren't like wrestling, you don't give a damn about the story, the only thing you do care about is winning so it's basically a fighting game in that aspect.
i don't think anyone ever tried (unless they're really bored) to have a wrestling match on any game just to get a good story through. the games are actually kind of a "what if" universe for wrestling gamers. like what if wrestling could be real?
take the average joe, give him a wrestling game, you think he'll try to go for the signature moves of the wrestler? or send a message using some move? no he'll find the best way (most of the time with weapons or ring parts) to beat the snot out of the guy, make him bleed.
if he's really bored he can do this for a very long time sometimes not caring about winning, just having fun doing what he can't legally do in real life, and that's channel his anger via violence.
and since this game is supposed to sell to everyone and not just wrestling fan, i say stick to the spirit of previous wrestling games.[/quote]
More or less I agree (with the exception of channeling anger part; studies show venting anger actually makes you more likely to assault someone)
What I am saying is that wrestling tells a story, and yes that story is of a fight. In real life wrestling would bore the crap out of me if it was just people trading off moves that should kill them. A wrestling game would allow you to have a big epic fight without going over the top ala fighting games without being bored either. Thats why in real life wrestling is about matches and not just moves.
I have never suggested that players should focus on the story of a match. I want players to feel like its real. What I am saying is that the game makers could actually focus on making the match fun, so that people are involved in the story, so that theres more than just moves.
I strongly disagree with undertaker666 here, because if a wrestling game match turns out choppy and poorly put together because I just try and win, then that's ridiculous and puts PWX on par with Smackdown in its annoyance for me. I defy your point that nobody plays for good matches; I most certainly do, 100% of the time. I think it's not wise to exclude the portion of the game audience who wants a well-structured and entertaining match AS WELL as trying to win.
But you see. For a well structured match it means your guy needs to get hit. But thats what you play to avoid right? You want to inflcit as much damage as possible on the other guy without getting beat up yourself. I mean look at No Mercy. I played that, on the hardest setting and proceeded to take part in 30 minute matches where only I had any offense. It was fun for me. I don't like having a well structured match because hell I could lose and thats what I want to avoid. If it happens its great! But for the most part I don't want to let it happen. I am trying to avoid that. I am trying to win
You want the AI to be perfect when you're not playing, and you want it to be two steps above a potato when you are playing.
Basically you want them to follow you around and put it in some token offense.
In the WWE games you pretty much expect to get all the moves. In something like Fire Pro you expect to get 90% of them.
Idea! Maybe instead of just being hit with a move or countering it, there could be a way to choose how to take the move. How to sell it. That'd add something to a back-and-forth match. It'd probably be impossible to implement, too.
You already have No Mercy. There are many wrestling games where the enjoyment comes from the moves and from squash matches. Not only are there games out there for that, there are going to be many more games like that because thats how the WWE rolls. However, PWX can not compete head on with the makers of No Mercy, but it can bring something new to consumers. Not only have North American gamers not been given a chance to play a game where good matches are a reward, at least not in terms of fast paced game intuitive game play, but the established formula for wrestling games has tapped out its audience. If PWX can offer something new, where the game play is greater than the sum of its parts, where every part of every match is fun and where the big moves are rare and truly exciting, then not only can you offer an already saturated wrestling game audience something new, but you can offer non wrestling fans with game play that might actually interest them.
Lets be honest about one thing. If PWX is appealing only for the same reason as existing wrestling games, then with its financial resources it is not likely to be as good as those games. Even if its better, which is kind of the point, then how long can it go head to head with the WWE? If PWX is fun because of balcony dives and crazy moves, how hard will it be for the WWE to hire enough animators to bury PWX with even more moves, more levels, more balcony's, more weapons, more gimmicks, and better graphics.
And lets not forget a large part of wrestling gamers. Import gamers, who have had a big impact on PWX in both there support and later there lack of interest, will not buy PWX because it lets you squash people like No Mercy.
And as for the dive, people who want it will set it up even if it takes them all day, no point making it easy on them.
bad idea. and inthezone i guess you didn't read my post to the end, or didn't get what i was implying. your goal in every game is to win, no matter what the game is, it's a game and it's sole purpose is to challenge the player by giving him obstacles that he must beat.
and that challenge is the point of every game, you don't play Madden NFL just for the fun of having a great and close match, not caring whether you win or lose. you play to win and if you could do some cool stuff along the way that's even greater.
that challenge in wrestling games is the AI. if it's smart enough you'll have great matchs, and will play until you can beat it and maybe anticipate it's next move. nm had a great AI, so when you have a match and you try to win, you sometimes end up losing just because you made a mistake.
and that's the fun, not the story behind it or the great chain of moves you pulled off.
i agree there should be a story line that has challenges, like say, injure a guy in this ppv, or put this guy through a table in that match, and you'll get points or whatever for creative thought like if you used a ladder to jump from to the table and so on. but that's where the story part ends.
so in the basic exhibition, when someone just wants to try the game out, he'll put it on the normal\hard difficulty and see how challenging it is to beat it. and not how he can portray a story with it.
For the record, pro wrestling matches, the match it self, is a story. Thats the story Im talking about. Good story's themselves have always been about struggle, about conflict. Every culture through out history has told storys about heroes fighting. The modern version of that sadly is pro wrestling, and martial arts movies. Thats why no matter how crappy or how cheesy they get theres still that masculine drive to watch them.
Quite frankly I think your stuck thinking in terms of how wrestling games are, and how the WWE is, and your not letting yourself see the potential of wrestling or wrestling games.
Oh, and when I play Madden and I score 5 or 6 50 yard touchdowns and win by 14 or more points, its no where near as fun as when I just barley win at the end of the fourth quarter. As for those big plays in Madden, there a lot more fun when I only get one or two in a game.
What I want is for players to start the game, play to win, and be challenged. I don't want players to tell a story. Thats the games job. If the game is properly balanced and designed great matches, with ups and downs and nail biting moments and the constant uncertainty of victory, well, they should just happen.
And another thing, wrestling as a whole isn't a linear story where you just win and win and win. Well, unless your Goldberg but that makes my point. For a story line to work right, and feel like wrestling, you wont win every time. So why should we only loose when the games cheap or we F up? Maybe if the game is balanced right and the AI don't suck, we will loose because we took a risk, and sometimes they don't pay off. Or the opponent took a chance and it did pay off. In a real fight you can not just play buy the rules, and not fuck up, and expect to win. In the UFC you might win by decision, but really if you play not to loose in a fight your just waiting to get beat
So really what Im saying is that the game should be challenging, and you should play to win, and that means that winning should be your focus, and your challenge, rather than pulling off this crazy move, or setting up a balcony dive.
I agree. I want to be challenged. But. Once i'm sufficiently good, I want to be able to dominate so I can move up the difficulty you know? Part of the fun is a slaughter.
Well in story mode I think you should occasionally face people who will beat the crap out of you, but at the same time I think that you should be given easy opponents from time to time. All of this was about how match flow is so important, how balance is key, how pacing is everything, and how big moves need to be big bonuses to a fun game not all of the fun themselves.
I think I should reiterate my point, with more clarity.
I agree that the player should only be focused with trying to win. I think the awesome match should occur in conjunction with this, by the very nature of the game engine. This would be THE perfect wrestling game. My point earlier was that in Smackdown! games, this isn't the case; I actually need to - and do - put effort into having a good match, rather than/on par with trying to win. That's ludicris, because as you rightly state, the object should be winning, and the awesome match just a by-product of a well-designed game engine.
I shouldn't have to TRY to have good matches. I should try to win solely, as you suggested, and the perfect game engine would ensure with a proper balance that a stellar, entertaining match would ensue, if it is called for.
well PunkDraco i can see what wrestling games can be, but for now i look at the here and now. pwx must be sold at least to cover the expenses, and with that build a fan base in the regular gamers community.
so for now they should only focus on getting those "cheap" and "gimmiky" features, cuz that would be what people will look for, i don't like it, you might not like it but that's the truth. doing crazy things, innovative things, in games is what drives people to play.
for example, you have your regular first person shooter, halo or any other, and then you have postal 2, taking the genere to new and psychopathic levels with things no one ever thought of, and you get rewarded for doing things that are crazier.
and you said what i mentioned before when i said that if you go for the jump of the balcony and you didn't nearly kill your opp, he'll be able to roll or counter in any other way and probably win the match, and if you hit it you'll probably win. once again high risk in it's full meaning.
now i get your point, if you'll be able to climb the stairs at any given moment, you can just go for it a few minutes into the match, i think they should add a stipulation to the balcony. that way you can only do balcony moves if you e.g. hit your opp with more then one weapon\more than one time with the same weapon\did your finisher.
and you're right about not always winning, you don't want to play undertaker's first 2 years. that's why in no mercy's story mod you have some matches you must win, and some you can lose and the result will differ.
the challenge is always in the AI, if it's smart enough to predict your moves and counter you or play possum when take risks, you'll be challenged.
I don't want forced losing. Every match should be winnable. Tough? Sure. But impossible? Hell no. I think any time you lose you shouldn't have to have a rematch but rather things just progress from there. I HATE being forced to do anything. Non-Linearity = Gold