I used to be a supporter of this game, PWX, but I now have come to terms with the fact this game may never be released.
Dave and Co. has been "working" on this game since 2002, and they really don't have much to show for it. A few screen shots and videos? I don't know about you, but I know for a fact it doesn't take 5+ years to get a couple of videos and shots. I feel as this game is Duke Nukem Forever, but much less publicized/cared about.
I'd like honest opinions, any flaming, harrassing, and trolling will be reported immediately to the highest authority.
However, you have to look at what this trip has entailed. It started out as a bunch of guys on a message board complaining about the wrestling video games that are being released. That was it for an awful long time, until one of them decided to try to do something about it.
With NO experience in making games, no education in making games, no NOTHING but being a game player, Dave has shepherded this along. Eventually getting funding, he now had to find programmers. Again, people who had never worked on a wrestling game before. In many cases they had never worked on ANY types of games before.
Several stops and starts, and mistakes along the way proved a learning experience and the game is starting to come along. A demo release is scheduled soon.
I have a lot of friends who feel the same way that you do, O. And I don't blame them, or you, for feeling that way, as it HAS been a long time in the making.
I can finally see some light at the end of the tunnel. PWX is almost ready to step into the light.
First off, there's no need to warn/threaten people about flaming, harassing, or trolling. We all have our own criticisms of the game and it's direction and this board is a means for us to discuss those criticisms. I'm not sure if you've seen, but there's a whole thread devoted to concerns and critiques that Dave himself has contributed to, and noone has been flamed or harassed for their respective opinions.
Now, I would like to respectfully disagree with your assesment of PWX. The game has been in development for a while, but I wouldn't say it's been in development any longer then the average game is when the developers are basically building the game's engine from scratch. Some of the best genre defining games were in development for up to 10 years, without much press or publicity, and were released to critical and financial acclaim. I get the feeling this post is more a result of your frustration with the game not being out yet then any legit concern about whether it will release or not. Dave and his crew have said they are on schedule, they've got a version playable enough to present to investors, and they have a handful of potential new investors who are gaining knowledge of the project. And believe me, I want screenshots and videos as much as anyone else. There's been more then a few times when I've had to resist the urge to beg Dave on this board about getting us new screens and videos. Then I remember, they've released new screensshots every saturday for 124 weeks running. Also, if they're not releasing videos on a regular basis, it's probably a good thing because it means that Dave and Co. are working so hard they don't have time to put out videos.
So to sum it up, the game isn't taking THAT long (all things considered), and if it is, it means a better product in the end for the gamers because eventually it WILL be released.
Believe me, frustration over how long this project is taking is felt the strongest in the studio where it's being developed. The longer it takes, the deeper into debt we go, so we want it out as quickly as anyone. Probably quicker.
The biggest surge of frustration came earlier this year when we were forced to change engines and essentially start development over from scratch AGAIN. So we've been trying for years, its true, but this game in this engine has actually only been in development for ten months. Fun!
well uprising was "going to be shipped by november" and december is almost over with. Last i saw, the game half worked. So, maybe bench marks need to be set with a little more planning? i am currently in school for Game Design here in Ottawa and since day 1 my teachers have said "set bench marks"...
I think given the various circumstances that have arisen over the years (in addition to being new to this industry), I think it's easy to see why it's taken as long as it has. You have to keep in mind they're developing this game with a handful of people on a shoestring budget. Most video games developed in a 1 year timespan (and that's what we're really talking about. If you look back over the 5 years you refer to you'll see mention that they had to start from scratch when the last game engine they planned to use didn't work out.) are developed using a team of developers, a team of designers, a sound effects team, a graphics team, a modeling team, an animating team, a voice acting team, a writing team, and a production/management team overseeing the whole project. Comparing a project like this to a major industry product is completely unfair in my opinion.
Now on the other hand, if you want to compare it against similar independent projects, I think you'll find the vast majority of them never even have screenshots to show. Most independent games that are completed have never broken the 3D barrier, and often times when they do the product is not really of high enough quality to justify that jump. PWX is not just breaking ground in the wrestling genre, it's breaking ground in the entire independent developer world.
Lastly, I can understand some frustration at sending in a pre-order and not seeing a product yet, but your money has helped support the team and allowed the development to continue. Your money is not just going towards a video game for you, it's going towards a video game for all of us. That is a noble cause gentlemen, and I for one am happy that I've had the opportunity to help keep things moving. At the end of the day if we never saw a game, We'd all individually be out 20-40 bucks, but Dave and the team would be out a dream, and loaded with debt. Let's try to keep things in perspective and be supportive. If this journey has taught the casual observer anything, it's that these guys have the spirit of warriors, and they will reach their goal.
[quote][cite] shamrock:[/cite]well uprising was "going to be shipped by november" and december is almost over with. Last i saw, the game half worked. So, maybe bench marks need to be set with a little more planning? i am currently in school for Game Design here in Ottawa and since day 1 my teachers have said "set bench marks"...[/quote]
No offense, but you are in game school, not the real world. I went to art school and school for writing. Discussing abstract theories and 'real life methods' is bullshit and it always will be. You know why? The real world entails variables that school doesn't talk about.
Uprising never had an official date, did it? I don't think they even gave a date, just an estimate that the end of the year/early next year was about it. Guess what? They are pretty much on schedule and just crossed a major bridge having to do with delivering a working game to a major investor and secure more funding. Guess what? They did.
But the reality is you have a guy with a family and a life who put his life on hold to start this project. He had to go out, get funding, hire a crew, shop around for distribution options, keep things going and there have been set-backs. There have been engine issues that forced the crew to start over from scratch, people leaving for other jobs, people not getting paid on time and just having to trust... This is the real world.
When this is all over, Dave NEEDS to write a book about the experience and it should get into the hands of ever would-be game developer/designer as a 'this is the real world, this is how things go when you just jump in and do it.' Because I'm sure there is a lot that people could learn from a guy with no inside-the-industry contacts or knowledge going in and making a game from scratch.
The whole project was started by arm-chair generals saying "I could do better than that." It's great to see other people saying so about their progress.
Thanks for the support guys. Spunk, obviously your support means a lot to me after being there from day one with us. Marla, I have no idea who you are but thank you for being here!
We try, we fail, we try again, and doing so publicly means we put our balls out there on the table for anyone to hammer.
Dave, I'm dead serious about the book. Have you been keeping a blog or journal or anything?
I mean seriously, the stuff that you've gone through is amazing and could be not only extremely entertaining and inspiring, but a great resource for people who are like 'hey, I want to make a videogame.' This is grassroots to the very CORE. I mean, you took typical internet self-righteous indignation and 'f*ck them, I could do better' and are doing it, you are really doing it.
Is it taking a while? Yeah. Duke Nukem Forever is a game where funding isn't the biggest issue, where there are people saying 'hey, this is a franchise game, look at how good Wolfenstein/Doom/etc did on new systems, I can see a new game making money.' For this, its a pro-wrestling game, there is no precedent, there was no experience, there was no 'game school' or even a business background.
"However, you have to look at what this trip has entailed. It started out as a bunch of guys on a message board complaining about the wrestling video games that are being released."
Oh wow...really? I'm not certain that a bunch of opinionated people who met via the internet could/would make a good wrestling game. They were complaining about the games being released, yet they still WERE being released, and being sold. Two things that can't be said for PWX. =\
"With NO experience in making games, no education in making games, no NOTHING but being a game player, Dave has shepherded this along. Eventually getting funding, he now had to find programmers. Again, people who had never worked on a wrestling game before. In many cases they had never worked on ANY types of games before."
"Hahahahahaha....ha"
Thanks for your input.
"The biggest surge of frustration came earlier this year when we were forced to change engines and essentially start development over from scratch AGAIN."
What caused this to happen? Why was starting from scratch the ONLY option? Doesn't seem feasible, that this far into the project you would simply start over. Really? No experience? No education? None whatsoever?
Now I'm really skeptical, Moniter. Simply being a player of games does not give you some right to go and start making claims and making games. I know plenty of people who play games, yet wouldn't know how to start making a game to save their lives. And what kind of programmer hasn't worked on ANY type of game before? I'm no programmer, not even in the Computer field, yet I've worked on games, coding software, and making applications.
This whole things seems a little far fetched.
"For this, its a pro-wrestling game, there is no precedent, there was no experience, there was no 'game school' or even a business background."
And with this being said, is it plausible this will succeed?
Just take a look at Action937's "Homebrew Wrestling" and see for yourself. He has himself said that the PWX crew's efforts inspired him to make it, and for his FIRST wrestling game, it already looks way more polished (engine-wise and much of the graphics) than many of Mat Dickie's more experienced entries from back then. He whole-heartedly supports the project and has even volunteered his efforts and his files to the crew, should the time come that they ever need it.
This game has truly gotten a grassroots following, and while it's perfectly alright (and even occasionally expected) to be skeptical about a release, you can't deny that this game has truly given us hope that the ULTIMATE wrestling game can be made.
Just as Dave, DarkOffspring, Spunk, Monitor, PunkDraco, Cube, and various others have said about the project (paraphrasing): "The ORIGINAL intent behind PWX was to get the other companies to actually put out GOOD wrestling games by now."
While we've certainly come a long way from WrestleMania X-8, and recovered almost fully from the debacle that was WrestleMania 21, THQ seems intent on screwing us over, so it really is up to companies like Spike (with Fire Pro) and even WishBoneX (with PWX) to put that "better wrestling game" forth.
Remember: some of the greatest endeavors in history succeeded despite the initial lack of any proper/necessary training/experience. Even if PWX [i]fails[/i], the result will hopefully be "better wrestling games" being made and released.
They had to scrap the development on the old engine due to legal reasons. Legals reasons also prevent them from explaining in any great depth why.
All they were able to tell us was that they purchased an engine that they were developing on, then found out they couldn't use it for a wrestling game.
I believe Spore is now 5 years in development, and it promises to be the best game ever. Really. And nobody shits on it for "It's now 5 years "in development" and doesn't comes out...". Calm down. And don't forget that they had to change the engine and aren't really as experienced as Will Wright.
It's a tough world out there for indy game developers. You can't compare an indy game dev studio to a professional one. milestones are different. schedules are different. That's why my bread and butter comes from my web and interactive company, and my hobby is making my indy wrestling game - I can't imagine making a living like dave and the crew, truely commendable.
Thanks for the compliments Fullmetal.
Interestingly enough, I realized that the program i was coding in was completely limiting everything i wanted to do creatively. The solution? Start over. I'm starting completely over - just like PWX had to. It's a tough decision, but by all means not necessarily a rare one. But as a result, hopefully the new HBW will make the old one look like a toy. But sometimes that happens. Real world comes into play.
"i am currently in school for Game Design here in Ottawa and since day 1 my teachers have said "set bench marks"..." -oh good God that made me laugh. all due respect.
Perhaps uprising is in a decent enough shape to release some gameplay videos? I know it sucks to do ANYTHING but soley work on the game itself at this point, but sometimes necessary evils like that do indeed keep the natives from getting restless.
[quote=fullMETAL] you can't deny that this game has truly given us hope that the ULTIMATE wrestling game can be made.[/quote]
That's a big call, and while I agree with the rest of your statements, I DO deny this. That looks like blind optimisim to me; we haven't seen anything more than the bare bones of the game, and you're already calling it the ULTIMATE wrestling game?
[quote][cite] OD50:[/cite]No, he said that the ultimate wrestling game CAN be made, big difference.[/quote]
How can anybody deduce that, either? For all we know, this won't be the ULTIMATE, and thus it doesn't prove that at all. In order to prove that it CAN be done, you'd think he meant it IS being done, now with PWX.
Just throwing my 2cents in, Dave you really could help the game industry by writing a book of your experience after it's all over.. There was a similar book written documenting the trials and tribulations of attempting to start a restaurant, tho I forget the title now but apparently it's incredibly helpful in letting people know all the things they wouldn't have thought of otherwise.. It'd be nice to see something similar for indy game developers! I'd certainly buy it ;)
[quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite][quote][cite] OD50:[/cite]No, he said that the ultimate wrestling game CAN be made, big difference.[/quote]
How can anybody deduce that, either? For all we know, this won't be the ULTIMATE, and thus it doesn't prove that at all. In order to prove that it CAN be done, you'd think he meant it IS being done, now with PWX.[/quote]
it's not deduction, it's interpretation. he was talking about a wrestling game made by 'fans' rather than 'suits'. you'd have to be a fan, suit or not, to work on one, but nevermind. to me, the ultimate wrestling game would have to be on the PC, would have to have a dedicated team working on it and working on constant updates, and it'd have to include quite a bit of customizability.
and no albert or hos taking up slots that can't be freed.
also you skipped the word 'hope'. that's kinda the crux of his whole thing. there's no point having hope of the ultimate wrestling game being made if it's already made. then you just go buy it. hence the hope.
[quote][cite] spudz:[/cite]Duke Nukem Forever will be released, so will be PWX... That's it, bottom line, end of discussion...[/quote] I don't know If I've ever mentioned this but Duke Nukem...Sucks!And Duke Nukem forever will be released when the NFS series stop not soon!
Yeah, I shoulda been clearer on my earlier statement. In no way am I saying that PWX, now or in the future when it's been optimized to its very best version ever, will BE the ultimate wrestling game (even though, hopefully, a future version can come damn close).
What I meant was that, thanks to inspiration stemming from the efforts of Dave and crew, there now exists anew the hope and possibility THAT..."the ULTIMATE wrestling can be made." Amend: ...REGARDLESS of the company that eventually produces it.
Remember: back in the day, WWF WarZone, and then WWF Attitude were considered the ULTIMATE in wrestling game's thanks to the Japanese wrestling games (Fire Pro 3, then GEKITOU Burning Pro, respectively)-inspired inclusion of the "create-a-wrestler" mode, made 3-dimensional for the first time ever, not just the US market.
Thanks fullMETAL. I understand what you're getting at. If a small group of dumbasses like us can make an even tiny little 3D wrestling game then the ultimate wrestling can be made by us or anyone else willing to give it a shot with enough time and money.
Any chance on the demo coming this month as mentioned before or is that out the window? I pre-ordered it ($10.99? Hells to the yes!) and I am really looking forward to the finished product.