1. When working on animations, please prioritize wrestlers reacting to and selling moves. If there are multiple reactions to an offensive move that will allow for less predictive, more reactionary game play. Having multiple reactions to offensive actions, and the ability to adjust how often they occur and under what situations they occur, will be an invaluable tool for adjusting how matches flow and how offenses are kept balanced. Prioritizing animations in this way will allow for developers, and users, to start working on how the games play right away. I know everyone wants their favorite finisher, but I think working on how offensive moves affect the match is more important than the moves themselves.
2. While I don't think this is important, I would really like to see wrestlers slug it out on top of turnbuckles. Of course for people to strike each other off the mat will require that they can effectively strike each other on the mat. If PWX can allow for occasional heated exchanges of strikes it will really make the game stand out. I just think occasional fist fights would be even cooler if they decided which wrestler was able to follow up with a turnbuckle grapple.
3. I think it would be fantastic if finishing submissions (not wear downs or rest holds) where truly dangerous and damn near inescapable once they are locked in. For this to work however finishing submissions would have to be defended against primarily BEFORE the move is done. I know I have mentioned it before but this is one idea I really believe in. I think the game would flow much better when finishing submissions are rare, dangerous, and all around much more exiting without ever slowing the match down. If I use arm bars as finishers, which I will, I would gladly land them less often and in return know that I could win a match anytime I do land it.
1) Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree that selling animation are probably the most important animation needed for a wrestling game, and I hope something like this is being thought about, at the very least.
2) Wrestling now a days, especially, in the WWE, is a big slug-fest. Everywhere in the arena they are duking it out more so than they are applying holds and other maneuvers, so this should be looked at very closely. Even if you are a 'OMG WORKRATE!' smark, or the best technical wrestler since [insert name of tech wiz] basic punches and kicks are going to be used a LOT in your matches. So the more places we can still use the old stand-by, the better. On the turnbuckle, on the apron, around the arena, or in the ring.
3) That is an interesting idea. Can there be a distinction between Submission holds and rest holds? Certain Armbars, sleepers, chin locks, etc really are nothing more than rest holds, while for others they are a means to finish a match. Implimenting this could be as simple as maybe having a way to designate the animation as a submission hold, or a rest hold, and the damage given reflecting that choice.
1) Our selling animations are...basic. Well they kinda suck right now really but everyone acknowledges it. One of the first things we'll be doing when we get a chance is removing and adding to the selling animations. Case in point, just last week we did a selling animation for someone getting punched in the head while standing on the apron. Darrell asked, "is this sell from the left or right?" We made the call to use a one-size-fits-all sell that would work no matter where the punch came from. Ideal? No. But something we can add and play with as we build the game out.
2) I could see this working similar to what Yukes tries to do when two guys are at the top of a ladder. It would need to be it's own state but I could see it working. There are already plans for a reversal point before a top rope grapple is executed so at least the potential is there to add a slug fest.
3) The cheapest way to do this is to only allow the move to be executed if it's going to succeed but then that would take away from the drama of seeing the move applied in the first place. I can see it working more like Punk described but not without the dreaded 'mini-game' or button mashing rearing it's ugly head.
First of all, this goes in with my "prioritize animating reactions to moves" idea though. I just really think that its better to have 1000 moves each with 2 possible results than 2000 moves each with a single possible result. As much as there talked about here I really don't think PWX will sell on move animations alone. If however you can be the one pro wrestling game that maintains a fast exiting pace without deteriorating into a "do this, do this, then do this to win" game I think theres a real chance this game could be something special.
Anyways back to the submission idea. I think that every submission should have a certain likelihood of resulting in a tap or in an reversal/escape, just like any other wrestling game. What I think could set PWX apart is the ability to block moves. Certain moves could add on this possibility. These moves should be the most dangerous, and should be considered as finishers/criticals. I would even like people too chose whether or not these moves are this powerful. A WWE fan might not want a flying arm bar to be there finisher, but I sure as hell will be using it as mine.
Lets continue with the arm bar example. It 's my finisher. I would try it at anytime in the match, and often. If I lock it in often, there are many possible negative results. One possibility is that people escape from it often, this would take away my chances of a lucky finisher/desperation move. This would make the move look weak and it would not be very exciting to see. Another possibility is people tap out a lot, making the move and submission wrestlers very unbalanced. A virtual certainty is that whenever I put on the move, both players will wait till a submission or escape, maybe button mash, but pretty much wait through a repetitive boring sequence of animations.
However, if my finishing submission could be blocked before it was locked in, there are many possible benefits. One is that when the move does land, it will be exiting due to the high potential it will be match ending. Also, the blocked move animations could be short, making the match move quickly and adding variety and intensity to the pacing of the game. Another benefit to this would be that if weak submissions can not be blocked, people could use them to gain stamina, plan, or give their fingers and brains a rest. This could actually give a point to rest holds. On top of all that, it would give people another chance to survive finishing submissions, and this would be extra important for new players. I want finishers to be dangerous but giving people a chance to block the move before reversing it or escaping it could really balance that out. Of course theres also the variety of reaction argument I keep making. Last but not least theres the issue of what could happen after a submission is blocked.
This is a very interesting issue. If I successfully initiate the submission animation, I should have the initiative. Reversals should happen, and happen often if you spam any move, but the point I'm getting at is that I want to see finishing submissions be dangerous but I don't want reversals to be so common that doing a submission is high risk and often puts you at a disadvantage. So if someone blocks my finishing submission, I could then do a different, weaker move to them if I act fast. This would create chain wrestling, and it would give weaker submissions a place in the game just like they have in actual wrestling. Also, there could be the possibility of trying to force your finishing submission onto your opponent, but this show off strength could be balanced by a small chance of success and a loss of initiative/momentum.
Back to the arm bar. This move could be blocked by grabbing onto locking my hands before my arm is extended or I could turn into the move. Or I could just pull my arm away. Since so many moves could be blocked just by pulling a limb in towards the body, this idea might not require as much animation as I thought.
I will give more examples, or go into more depth, at anyones request.
I know this is an expensive time consuming idea.
I think the WGU and its supporters need to decide right now if deeper game play is more or less important than having many offensive moves. I know that many people believe that the moves make the game, but I think that shows that most wrestling games have not fulfilled the genres potential and I think PWX could.
Hi there, great post. Just a few thoughts of my own on the submission system and animations.
I think the idea of having multiple reactions to each move is great, but I'd say that I'd prefer this to be determined buy the player, either in the CAW mode or during the match somehow. One of the things I loved about No Mercy was how you knew the way your opponent would end up after you've performed a move. I knew that certain moves would set me up perfectly for the following move. I liked the idea that I could in essence create my own combos because the reactions were so predictable. So like mentioned above, maybe in the CAW you choose your move and then you choose how they should end up from that move ie groggy front, groggy back, downed facing up, downed facing down etc. I think that this will also make for a much better finisher system too. If I want a generic punch to be my finisher it can be, whereas it might usually just stunned your opponent, you could make it down them. Of course there would need to be some limitations so people don't make every move knock them down. Maybe punches etc can only knock them down if they're set as a finisher. Anyway I may be making this far more complicated than it needs to be, but I definitely think that there needs to be a certain amount of predictability about the animations.
The other thing is the submission system. I think that the best way around it would be to let the player lock in the move for as long as they want, but the longer you have it locked in for, the easier it will be to reverse giving them the advantage. Again moves set to a finisher will be much harder to get out of than basic headlocks. I do think though that if should be down to the player to work out how long they can keep a move locked in for rather than the computer working it out for them.
PD, there is an easy way to test and begin putting such a system in place. The lowest risk place to start (cheapest $$$) is to simply let any submission move be flagged as a finisher. Flagging a move would increase it's damage greatly but also increase the likelihood of it being blocked. At the first stage of development this would mean simply using a generic block animation ( I think No Mercy used a kick to the face) whenever you got into position and attempted an armbar. The next step would be to add a move-specific block animation part way through the armbar attempt to add a bit more depth to the system. AKI was on their way to doing this and you can see it by way of trying to perform a single leg crab. If it's going to be blocked (and this is determined as the move is initiated) the game instead plays a Bostoncrab and it's block animation because they didn't have a block specific to the single leg crab. If such a system could be taken to a reasonable degree of depth I think you would have what you're looking for, that being the ability to attempt a submission finisher at anytime with increased risk/reward.
I think thats a step in the right direction and a fairly realistic way of doing it. I really think that generic "block animations" should be easy to do. The main thing that I think would be fun is if after the generic block animation it allowed for the person doing the move to immediately follow up with another attack, which could then have a chance of being reversed. Chain wrestling baby.
Flickerstick, I hear what your saying about being able to predict an opponents reactions but I disagree with you one hundred fifty percent. First of all, most American wrestling games play this way. Why be the same? I really think this predictably is one of the reasons WWE games get boring year after year, and they may do that on purpose just to sell a new game year after year. No Mercy played like what your suggesting, and if PWX doesn't become something much more than a No Mercy 2 it will feel outdated and will probably be a lesser version of the No Mercy inspired TNA game. Also, most wrestling games REALLY are not that deep. People might enjoy doing move sequences because thats the most enjoyable thing they can do. Making reactions and events less predictable could provide with constant excitement and decision making not seen in American wrestling games. Add an American real time feel onto that and you could find PWX actually expanding the genre and getting attention by all types of gamers. Also, can the AI every really get so good that you can be constantly challenged and provided with variety in a system where reactions to moves are certain? One of the reasons strikes are so important in WWE games is that its the only way they have to keep people being able to unfairly exploit chaining moves one after the other. Making reactions uncertain is a much better way.
In most wrestling games pulling off moves is where all the funs at, I think PWX should be more about reacting to your opponent. Of course pulling off moves will happen and it will be just as fun if not more but PWX needs to be different and I think it could be.
I read somewhere that to make a really great game theres one main criteria. If you can have fun in the first room your in, without even facing an opponent, the game will be fun. This doesn't fit exactly with wrestling games, since the game is based entirely on interacting with an opponent. However, I think that if PWX can be fun for an extended period of time if your just playing with the same two wrestlers, it will be fun. That means its fun at a very deep level, its fun without the CAW, the story lines, the move sets. If PWX can pull that off, it will be a great game. I think the only way it can do that is to make a system that gives more variety and uncertainty than its competitors do.
I have to agree with PunkDraco; this is exactly what I envisioned/hoped would set PWX apart and finally satisfy me in a new way, which other wrestling games don't. This depth to the game and movelist rather than width is very important, and I'd love to play through a technical, deep match with chain wrestling and psychology. As opposed to flickerstick, I think the uncertainty will give it a new life; if you don't know whether/how an opponent will reverse a move, then you must think quick and strategize what move you will attempt on the spot. This gives a psychology of real competition, rather than planning half a minute ahead and 'going through the motions.'
I can't stress enough how important this will be in making a unique atmosphere in the matches and the game itself.
I have gotten a bad reputation about how I am towards supporters I am not familiar with but I am really happy that there are new supporters and I am really happy to see the boards picking up. I know I have been a little abrasive on these boards, hopefully you all can understand that I have been here long enough that I have a very clear vision of what I think PWX should be and I really want it to succeed. I do not mean to say that my visions of the game or my ideas on how it should succeed are always whats best. I do however believe that there has been a long established vision for PWX that has been shared with crew and fans alike. I think keeping focused on that vision, while striving to improve it, is how this forum can best serve the game and the users it is intended for. Thats all Ive been saying since Ive started posting on this forum so I just want to get out that I have not meant to be a jerk to anyone. I'm glad WE are all here.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]1. When working on animations, please prioritize wrestlers reacting to and selling moves.[/quote]
If selling a strike close to the ropes, especially later on in the match, wrestlers should hold or fall on to them for support, without necassarily (but perhaps occasionally) becoming tangled up in them or too dazed to get off them.
I know what you're saying PD about how it should be doing more than No Mercy and not just a copy of it, but I REALLY don't think it was a negative in that game and to try and change that when there are far more blatant issues with wrestling games at the moment would be absolutely ridiculous.
Think back to all times you and a mate had your own tag team finisher in No Mercy. You'd do a brainbuster which would set up perfectly for your partners swanton from the top rope. You'd know EXACTLY how your opponent would be lying and you wouldn't have to go to the bother of dragging them around the ring or flipping them. If there were multiple outcomes this just wouldn't be possible would it?
I also have to disagree that this is where current US wrestling games are going. The SD series has always been the MAIN culpret of unpredictable reactions. When doing a move I had no idea whether my opponent would land face down, up or fly to the other side of the ring. Or a simple punch, it could either not faze them at all or send them flying outside the ring. I can't explain how frustrating that was.
To be totally honest, I can see NO advantages of multiple reactions to moves at all when there are so many more things that time could be spent on. The only plus would be for different weight classes to have different reactions.
Maybe I'm missing something, how could different reactions add that much more excitement?
I actually agree with Flickerstick on this one, the sheer irritation of trying to set up a suplex or anything else to hit an aerial move properly in SD is awful. The fact that you used to have to do that 'run at them in the turnbuckle, press square and they'll fall down and you'll be on the top rope' move to do anything killed the simulation aspect of it. I want to be able to do an RVD fall forward slam into a split leg, without my opponent dead fish flopping out of position, just as in real wrestling where you'll see people actually moving into position for splashes etc.
I do not think anyone is really willing to visualize or think about what I am saying.
You will still be able to use moves to set people up. In fact you will have more ways to do it. However, things will never happen 100 percent of a game. Really all I am doing is taking the idea that moves should not always be successful a step farther. Different reactions to offensive moves will vary in their likelihood of happening just like anything else in the game. Those likelihoods should be affected by the match just as reversals and pitfalls should. In fact one system could track all match and wrestler data and be used to modify percentages for those likelihoods based upon things like stamina, damage taken, attribute points, and momentum. This idea could also be used to help implement a desperation no sell feature.
When doing a move, there would be a reaction that commonly happens. There would also be at least another reaction that can occur. This reaction(s) would have a percentage of happening, that could be affected by events on the match.You could have a plan to do something based upon a common reaction, but then you would also have to contend with the possibility of another reaction. You could also plan to do something based upon a less than common reaction, but this would take more effort to set up. You could also have varied similar reactions, and all that variety would keep you more visually stimulated and thus more immersed in the game. Beyond this, there could be universal reactions that could potentially occur after moves due to other criteria being met. This could result in wrestlers finding themselves in different poses and thus set them up for different moves.
All in all this idea is based upon immersion. Immersion is at the very heart of the fun factor. It can make games feel real, which is important for anything "sim style." Immersion can provided new stimulation and escape from the old. It can bring you to the moment, even if that moment is in an artificial reality. Yes I am going so far to suggest that video games have the focusing potential to be a form of meditation, but if thats true I think thats a great thing. Anything that brings people into the tao is fine with me. Anyways, I really think those moments when you lose yourself into the moment, or into the game, are my favorite moments in video games, While I love wrestling games they rarely do that. Guitar Heroes has done it, Zelda has done it, war games has done it, and so has DDR, hell tetris has done it. Immersion is not about graphics, its about focusing your mind, its about being in the moment. Be Here Now, also my favorite book. My favorite art of all types brings me into the moment, captures my complete focus, I also find that true with gaming.
In fact, I think we already do. The fast pace of American games makes them more immersing and makes fast reaction more important. This is why despite their shortcomings they can be fun? Should we not build on that?
Immersion is not about high resolution or visual noise. Its about uncertainty, its about constant mental stimulation. If people always know what will happen next they will never find themselves in the moment. They will never feel the excitement of uncertainty, the beauty of variety. They will never be challenged with the uncertain. They will never be given the opportunity of an unexpected advantage. If people know whats happening they will repeat the same thing over and over again, they will take it for granted. They will also never be able to surprise themselves. They will lose the ability to improvise, they will not even have the opportunity to do something rare and special. Wouldn't a wrestling game be more fun if it was more about back and forth wrestling? Have you all been corrupted by easy lazily made games?
Doesn't doing the same things over and over again throughout the life of a game get old? It bores me. Even if its my favorite thing to do in a game I always enjoy doing them more when I can not do it every single try. All I am asking for is some more variety. I'm not saying that you should not set up moves I'm saying that setting up moves should have more possible outcomes, which you can then do your best to make the most of.
Aye Colly, the flop fish sell has to be the worst of all. Christ knows what they were on with that one.
Well okay PD, maybe there is a compromise. How about if early on in the match the likelihood of a different reaction is far greater, and when you have worn your opponent down they will 99% of the time react how you expect. For me that we be a good middleground, in fact thinking about it that good be really quite interesting.
I don't think anything should be on a 99 percent of the time likelihood, but the whole idea is that you have to work to set people up more but in return theres more options and variety in the game. It does not rule out setting people up at all.
I think we are forgetting that this is Professional Wrestling. Typically there are only certain pre-defined outcomes to almost every situation and a lot of it is even scripted. If I watch a match on TV I can tell you what is going to happen start to finish. Too much realism in a wrestling game wouldn't be realistic at all. And God forbid this game is anything like Smackdown.
Back a while ago, I wrote a long, drawn out idea for the submission system.
The general gist of it is this - there would be three types of submissions:
1) Wear down holds - these are the headlocks, arm-wringers, hammerlocks - the type you see in the opening minute of the match. Advantages - very easy to apply, rarely blocked. Disadvantages - Damage they do is minimal, if you don't transition it into a move, it will be reversed in a few seconds Example - A puts B in an arm wringer. After a second or two, A hits an elbow to the shoulder, and pushes B to the corner. Example 2 - A puts B in an arm wringer...but holds it too long. B rolls through and reverses to his own arm wringer.
2) Rest holds - chin locks, full nelsons, nerve holds - the type that are used to slow down a match in the middle. Advantages - Can be held, the attacker gains energy and recovery from using them, occasional submission Disadvantages - Only way you could get a submission is by completely destroying that body part, easy to crawl to the ropes or fight out of it. Example - A is controlling the match, puts B in a chinlock. He holds it tight, gaining energy, and after 30 seconds or so, B begins to fight up out of it, only to be thrown to the mat by A. Example 2 - A has been dominating the match, focusing all of his attacks on the shoulder area, and puts B in a single arm chickenwing. B is in the middle of the ring, and desperately crawls to the ropes - but can't make it and gives up. Example 3 - A puts B in the chinlock like the first example, but doesn't stop B's comeback - allowing B to break the hold, run to the ropes, and floor A with a diving tackle.
3) Trademarks - these are the main submission holds for the character - they could be finishers (Ankle Lock for Angle, Figure Four for Flair) or a wrestler's trademark hold (Taker using the Dragon Sleeper, HBK using the inverted Figure Four). Advantages - if a wrestler gets you in this hold, there's a chance the match will be over - very difficult to break out of or reach the ropes Disadvantages - Very difficult to apply - think about some of Benoit's matches with the crossface. A lot of the match would be him going for the move, and the opponent fighting it. Or him taking the opponent down, but not latching onto the hold.
Example: A's finishing submission hold is the sharpshooter. Two minutes into the match, he goes for it, but the opponent is able to wriggle his way to the ropes before it's locked in. Example 2: 8 minutes into the match, he goes for it again, but it's close to the ropes and B is able to get to the ropes within 10 seconds of application. Example 3: 12 minutes into the match, he goes for it a final time, and is successful, getting it in nice and deep. B has nowhere to go, nowhere to escape, and is forced to tap out.
As for other submission related ideas, there were two more: a) the point of this system was to make it so that there would be no "released" holds - the classic cheater mode in No Mercy is the one where you take down a tough opponent with a series of snapmares, then link right into a dragon sleeper over and over again until you win. The idea behind what I think is that there should only be six possible endings to a hold: - the opponent blocks it (prevents it from being completely applied) - the opponent breaks it (with a strike or by physically breaking the hold) - the opponent reverses it (into a pinning combination, a suplex, something else) - the opponent gets a rope break - the attacker heelishly releases the hold - the opponent taps out
b) Each of these holds should have several reversal points, corresponding to the various endings of the hold. You should be able to stop a move by: - blocking it initially (Benoit goes for the crossface, but Angle refuses to be dragged down, or wriggles out of the ring before the hold is applied) - breaking it before it's fully applied (Angle goes for the Ankle Lock, and gets it partially, but Benoit is able to roll it over and punch Angle to break the hold) - reversing it (Angle goes for the ankle lock, Benoit is able to turn over and roll Angle into a small package; Benoit gets the crossface locked in, but Angle rolls over, hooks Benoit's head, and hits the Angle Slam)
This idea makes for strategy - do you LET your opponent get a hold locked in to try and get a big reversal, or do you block it before it gets that far?
[quote][cite] RRGleason:[/cite]Back a while ago, I wrote a long, drawn out idea for the submission system. [/quote]
If the animation team spent a considerable amount of time on various generic holds which most wrestlers would use, making different chains, variations & reversal animations etc, then realistic systems like this would be possible.
When last I was able to stomach fire pro I remember there being far more powerbombs than armlocks- a classic example of animators putting more effort into the variety of the finishers than the variety of the actual wrestling, something which I hope will be avoided in future.