Part 1 **Summary** After following pro wrestling x since it's conception, I wanted to share my thoughts on why I don't think it's gonna make much noise if it follows it's current path. More importantly, I wanted to share the one advantage that I think Dave and the rest of the staff have that could make Pro Wrestling X a financial and critical success and redefine pro wrestling games in the process. *************** One thing I want to say before I get into this rant is that aside from being a wrestling fan for many many years and a video game addict for even longer, I am also an amateur game designer. I have my Bachelor's degree in computer science and my final project for my last game design class was a wrestling game called "ECW Spots".
"ECW Spots" played more or less the same as the diving event on the old genesis/snes olympics games where you had to complete a sequence of button presses before you landed on your opponent. I made the game by borrowing the bitmaps of wrestlers from an SNES emulator that was playing Fire Pro Wrestling X. Although it was a simple 2D game, I was plesantly surprised to see how much fun it was. During the process of designing the game, I gained a new appreciation and a deeper insight into what makes a good wrestling game.
Like the rest of you, every year I've had to endure the shoddy, pseudo-fighting engine that is Smackdown vs. Raw so I can play a "pro wrestling" game. Unfortunately, it's the only "pro wrestling" game available to me that doesn't involve importing from Japan. The only alternative on the horizon is the "TNA Impact!" game. The bad news is, much like TNA's roster and writing staff, TNA's game looks like another attempt at doing their best WWE impression. From all indications, TNA will not try to redefine the "pro wrestling" game genre, but will rather try to trim their bets by offering a slightly more No Mercyish engine then Smackdown vs. Raw.
And here's the really bad news; Because Pro Wrestling X is building from the same premise, it has a slim chance of being a financial or critical success. I know what people are thinking after reading that last sentence and I'd like to reply to each anticipated statement.
"They don't have the same money or name brands as the big companies, of course it's gonna be rough until they get some cash coming in." There's no arguing this. Even if Pro Wrestling X lives up to our highest expectations of gameplay, Dave and the gang do not have a Jon Cena or a Kurt Angle to put on the box and that's going to make it very hard to attract the majority of pro-wrestling fans. The only way this game is going to make enough money for Dave and company to make a sequel is if it sells by word of mouth (or message board). I along with all the other supporters of their efforts will do my best to make sure that happens. However, at present, Pro Wrestling X is a long shot to make any noise in the genre if it can't offer something that gamers have never seen before to compensate for it's lack of recognizable wrestlers.
"If it's a true sequel to No Mercy, I'll be happy." WWF No Mercy is the best pro wrestling game I've ever played up to this point in my life. The gameplay is balanced and the pacing is believable. The controls are intuitive and there is a deceptive amount of depth to just how many moves each character can do. However, if you're thinking that Pro Wrestling X is going to be No Mercy 2, you'll probably be dissapointed. Aside from the legal restrictions preventing Pro Wrestling X from using the AKI No Mercy engine, I believe Dave himself has said that he wants this game to borrow from all the best parts of a variety of wrestling games. It sounds like Dave is certaintly being more ambitious with Pro Wrestling X then WWE or TNA are being with their games, but he has the same goal of making a pro wrestling game that treats pro wrestling as a sport or a fighting event.
"The modding community is gonna make this a phenominal game even if it's just an open source No Mercy engine." I believe that the modding community will ultimately make this game special and give it the legs to bring in a slow but steady cash flow. However, if you think that the modding community is going to basically take this engine and build things like new match types and modes, then you greatly underestimate the time and effort it takes to code games. But what about the texture projects that have come out and given new life to No Mercy? To change or add elements to gameplay is not even comparable to the relative ease it takes to retexture or splice animations.
Before going on, let me reiterate that I have nothing but respect and admiration for Dave and his crew for embarking on such an ambitous journey. I do believe that Pro Wrestling X will be a very good video game that will satisfy the majority of us who want nothing more then a game in the mold of No Mercy that will allow it's dedicated fanbase to add content and ultimately better the game. I just don't think Pro Wrestling X is tapping into it's biggest advantage over the competition.
"What advantage?" you say. Didn't I just write that the people behind Pro Wrestling X are doomed? Not exactly. The fact that Pro Wrestling X is not tied to any wrestling company is what ultimately gives it the freedom to break through a barrier that WWE and TNA can't break through. This barrier can't be overcome by any budget or superstar name and TNA and WWE would NEVER willingly break this barrier. This barrier is 'kayfabe'.
****PRO WRESTLING X SHOULD BREAK KAYFABE****
I really hope that this term doesn't need to be explained, but kayfabe is slang for doing what it takes to keep people believing that pro wrestling is real. To break kayfabe is to do something that admits wrestling is indeed choreographed. So what do I mean when I say Pro Wrestling X should break kayfabe? I mean that Pro Wrestling X should not be a game where wrestling is treated as an actual fight where the objective is to win, but rather as a cooperative effort between two people where the objective is to put on the best performance possible. When you play Pro Wrestling X, your goal should not be to beat your opponent(s), but rather to put on the best match you can.
THE PREMISE How can you have a wrestling game where the object is not to win the match? Simple, you break kayfabe and you think, "What is the REAL goal of a wrestler in a match?" As I said, the REAL goal of the match should be to put on a good performance, and when you look at it from a wrestler's perspective, it basically boils down to these aspects: 1)Performing a variety of moves in a logical progression 2)Not injuring your opponent or yourself while performing any of these moves 3)Having spots in the match and a finish to the match that go above and beyond the usual moves. Usually this involves a higher risk of injury.
GAMEPLAY BASICS The gameplay mechanics could basically be the same as the approach that Dave and his crew are taking now, but instead of just having a stomp or a suplex or a splash performed with a button press or combination of buttons pressed at once, there should be a timing element (much like how jump shots work in basketball video games) where whatever move you do, you must hold and then release the button at the proper time to pull the move off perfectly. If you release the button too early, then the move is much safer for you and your opponent, but much faker looking and unimpressive to the crowd. If you release the button too late, you may pull of the move and it will look devastating, but it's more likely that you will wind up botching the move and injuring yourself or your opponent. If you release the button at just the right time, the move will look good but it will not injure you or your opponent. From what I know about coding games, this would be relatively easy to achieve. It also wouldn't be that hard to show a little meter when you push down and hold the button so you can see what timing you are aiming for. You could even have this move or stiffness meter vary depending on the difficulty of the move. Something like a punch or body slam would have a forgiving late release because they are so low risk, but it would also have a harsher early release because it's also hard to make them look impressive. On the other hand, something like a jumping tombstone or a shooting star press would have a very forgiving early release because even if these moves are done more on the safe side they're impressive, but a much harsher late release because if they're botched, the risk of injury is astronomical. The tricky part is coding the logic to determine what makes a good match and how moves that look too weak or are botched affect the match.
ADVANCED GAMEPLAY Adding the hold and release of a button to a game's code is not very hard. What is hard is coding the logic so the game knows what determines a good or bad match. This is where the challenge lies. First off, there needs to be some sort of crowd reaction or heat meter to show how into the match the crowd is. The main objective in a match should be to keep this meter as full for as long as possible. This crowd meter should fill up more when an impressive move is performed or a chain of back and forth moves is established. The crowd meter should always be slowly lowering (much like the special meter in tony hawk games except MUCH slower. It would have to start really being noticeable after 10 or so minutes into a match) with the logic being that as a match goes on or if the wrester's aren't doing anything, the less a crowd will be into it. Secondly, there needs to be a stamina meter much like the fire pro games. The more exerting moves will take away from your stamina and the stamina meter will decrease slowly as the match goes on, but can be refilled by resting (just like in fire pro) . One addition to the fire pro stamina system would be that doing rest holds (like headlocks) will refill your stamina as this is what wrestlers actually do to catch their wind in a match. Also, if your stamina is low, this should make timing moves (releasing the button at the right time) harder as the more exhausted you are in the ring, the higher your chances are of botching a move or making a move look weak. I think this would be an amazing experience as the player is trying both to get the crowd meter as high as possible by performing impressive moves, but also has to be concerned with their stamina as they do not want to injure themselves or their opponent. Think of how much fun human vs. human play would be if instead of playing a wrestling game where both people are constantly locking on submission holds or taunting to get their finishers, both players are actually cooperating to try and put on a 5-star match. Or, both players could be trying to outdo each other by seeing who can pull of the best moves without injuring themselves or an opponent.
CLOSING WORDS...FOR NOW I know this post is exceptionally long (and it's my first post) but I've had this idea swimming in my head for a while and I registered with the message board just so I could post this. Honestly, If I had the time and resources to try and code this game myself, I certainly would, but I don't. Out of my respect and admiration for Dave and what he's doing, I figured it was worth sharing. Make no mistake about it, I am one of PWX's biggest fans and I will be one of the first in line to buy it no matter what they do. I also realize that PWX is too far along in development now to make such a drastic change in direction as the one I've suggested (not to mention the delays it would cause to a game that people are already pounding down the doors for). If anyone would like me to go further into how things like story mode, match endings, and modding would work with this kayfabe breaking engine, I'd be happy to elaborate because I've basically mapped out the game to the level just above the actual formulas used for coding. I realize that many of you will probably be unimpressed or flat out angered at what I'm suggesting, so if you'd like to debate about whether this idea would work or not, I'm certainly open to it.
EDIT: Looking back over your post, I think I misunderstood your intent.. now that I re-read it, it sounds like you're suggesting the actual game mechanics reflect the 'performance' aspect of Pro Wrestling, rather than who wins or loses. I think that's a good idea! However, I don't think it should be one or the other. In my 'perfect vision' of a wrestling game, you would still pay attention to who wins or loses, because that's part of kayfabe itself, and as such, is integral to the quality of that performance. It also provides for competition among friends, which is nice :) However, I think having a way to score the players on their performance would be great.. Something like Keller's star ratings (Keller, the editor from PW Torch) for example. I don't think you have to sacrifice one game mechanic to get the other!
What's important to note is that Smackdown vs Raw already has a system like this in place, albeit a very simplistic one. Depending on the momentum of your match when you make a pin attempt, the audience will cheer louder and count off 1 2 3. If your match is terrible, they won't count for the pin, and they'll chant 'Boooring'. As far as I can tell, it doesn't keep track of the entire match, but rather only the heat at that moment, but it's better than nothing :)
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]I really do not see how a game like this could be fun. Thats just my honest opinion. Great long thought out post though.[/quote]
It sounds almost like you want a graphical TEW/EWR type game. Sort of a behind the scenes game.
While some people would find that incredibly fun, most casual gamers do NOT care about a good match, they care about having fun.
I don't think this style of game would stand a chance with the casual gamer. I would probably have fun with it, but my wife who doesn't care about match mechanics wouldn't be interested.
Maybe once all of the work is done with PWX proper a behind the scenes expansion could offer something like what you want if theres a market for it. Honestly Im trying to think of a way to do a game that breaks kayfabe and be fun, but I have not thought of it yet. If I think of something ill let you know.
[quote][cite] esteel20:[/cite][quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]I really do not see how a game like this could be fun. Thats just my honest opinion. Great long thought out post though.[/quote]
I pretty much agree. Nice post though.[/quote]
Thirded. The fun of a wrestling game for me, is trying to win. It's basic, it's kayfabe, but it's the foundation for enjoying wrestling whether watching or playing it.
I think you've gone about it all wrong. Rather than the PLAYER being responsible for ensuring a match is a good quality classic, the game should be programmed as such BY DEFAULT, so that a player may play to win and not HAVE to focus on having a match that isn't poor in quality.
That sums up my sentiments, and I can't stress enough the importance of the difference, in my eyes.
This is how I play with my friend or bf all the time. That doesn't mean there's no challenge or competition.. we still compete pretty intensely. If you don't have that competition, and you're just basically running through a script, it will get boring. But if you combine the two things together, having intense competition, WHILE focusing on pacing and ring psychology, I think you'll have a much greater time.. we certainly do. We don't plan things out in advance, but we all have a good understanding of how a good match looks or feels, so we can push ourselves in that direction.
This isn't especially hard, you can start learning how with a very simple trick. In the begining of the match, no wrestler should be totally in control. Early on everything should be back and forth, lots of reversals, etc. After a few minutes and the two wrestlers are worn down a bit, one big stunning move like a DDT or a really powerful slam should give one guy the momentum. At this point, the other player can stop reversing as much, and basically let himself get beat up on a bit. When the time feels right (It's still early, nobody should be controlling the match for _too_ long) you reverse and take over control of the match. As the match draws on, you should go longer between big momentum swings, because realistically it gets harder to reverse when you're worn down.
That's the basics of pacing.. You can take that a step further if you're familiar with specific gimmicks used in real life. For example, let's say Wrestler A is in control, and Wrestler B gets beat up for like 1-3 minutes. After a few grapples, A tries to irish whip B, but B reverses it, whipping A into the ropes. However, when A springs off the ropes, he does so with a flying lariat, and takes B down to the mat. In this scenario, A should regain control. B had his chance to swing things his way, and he failed, and in real life this sort of thing would continue with A beating the crap out of him for a few minutes longer, as if to say he's really really in control. If this were a tag match, B might start trying to tag out and getting pulled away from the corner, etc, so that when he does tag his partner in, it's a hot tag. Those are just a couple examples of more specific ways you can improve the pacing and psychology of the match.
Now it's true that some of the burden of this effort is put on the developer, and they try to promote such things by making people sell longer (Selling in SvR 2008 is incredible..it's still not perfect, but it's much better than 2007, which was much better than years prior), slowing down moves, etc. However, there's so many intricate, situational things that can happen to improve a match, that it's unrealistic or impossible for a video game to get them all right. You really need that human oversight to pull it off.
If you do this, I promise you your matches will become more fun, not only to play, but for other people to watch as well.
Awesome read. Again, it gets back to having a "wrestling sim" be an oxymoron. Because wrestling video games are competative - I'm trying to beat my opponent - real wrestlers aren't trying to beat their opponents.
This is the first idea that creates a wrestling sim without having it turn into the UFC.
The problem lies, obviously in the "fun" aspect. But I don't think that's a problem cause it would have a more sim-city fun.
The other problem i see is how this would impact, say, a battle royal, or a royal rumble. Even a triple threat.
Who cares if wrestling is not real, video games are not real. If people smblion can play using ring psychology by choice in games not designed for them to do that I dont see why a game should be designed around them doing that. I also don't think that it is possible for a game to define what a good match is without forcing game play to be repetitive.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]Who cares if wrestling is not real, video games are not real. If people smblion can play using ring psychology by choice in games not designed for them to do that I dont see why a game should be designed around them doing that. I also don't think that it is possible for a game to define what a good match is without forcing game play to be repetitive.[/quote]
I agree, I think the best games do not narrowly define how you play them, but instead they provide you a good variety of tools (in the form of features) in order to enjoy the game the best possible way for _you_. To some people, a wrestling game is just a different sort of fighting game, and to people like me it's something more akin to a simulator. The best wrestling game will be able to cater to each of us, not one or the other :)
Wow, happy to see so many responses. I'll try to address them as promptly as possible.
PunkDraco -"The funnest moments in wrestling are when you suspend disbelief I think the same applies to games based on wrestling." The problem with that argument is that when you're playing a wrestling game, you're not actually suspending disbelief because it really is a fight (a virtual one), not two people staging a fight. This is another reason I think a game where you actually have to work the matches could be as fun if not funner then a fighting-game approach to pro wrestling. If you're working the match, then just like in real wrestling matches if you're doing a good job and doing sick spots, you'll actually find yourself suspedning disbelief and going "this is an awesome match". I think that feeling is something you can't get from a fighting-game approach.
Monitor-"It sounds almost like you want a graphical TEW/EWR type game. Sort of a behind the scenes game.
While some people would find that incredibly fun, most casual gamers do NOT care about a good match, they care about having fun.
I don't think this style of game would stand a chance with the casual gamer. I would probably have fun with it, but my wife who doesn't care about match mechanics wouldn't be interested." First, I'm a HUGE EWR mark. Actually, you bring up a point I didn't get to in my first posts; the fact that all these independent "behind-the-scenes" games out there that are from the booker's perspective have had success is another reason I believe there is definitely a market for a "behind-the-scenes" game from a wrestler's perspective. Look at the success guys like Adam Ryland (EWR/TEW) and Matt Dickie (Wrestling Empire/Booking Empire) have had with games that break kayfabe. Second, I totally agree that casual gamers care more about fun then having a good match, but I don't think that you have to sacrifice one for the other. I also agree that this game would not appeal to the casual gamer. But really, the path that PWX is on now (no big superstars or name brands, minimal advertising, online distribution only) is not going to attract a lot of casual gamers. If we're being totally honest, probably %90 of the people who are going to spend money on PWX are the same people who still play No Mercy more then any other game in their collection. I think we're kidding ourselves if we think that PWX is or should be targeting the casual gamer. And as far as your wife not wanting to play the type of game I'm proposing, in my experience if the game doesn't have the words "Nintendo" "Halo" or "Guitar Hero" in it, it's pretty hard to get a girl to play.
*InTheZone*-"I think you've gone about it all wrong. Rather than the PLAYER being responsible for ensuring a match is a good quality classic, the game should be programmed as such BY DEFAULT, so that a player may play to win and not HAVE to focus on having a match that isn't poor in quality." The game that you speak of where the matches play out as smoothly as they do on TV is the same game that THQ has been striving for since WCW vs. The World came out on Playstation 1. And as of right now, they're only slightly closer then they were back then. That's why I'm saying that there should be a game where the goal is to put on a good match. The type of engine where you're competing with another player like a fighting game but it plays out like a wrestling match is next to impossible. I would LOVE a game where by defualt the matches look great but you're ultimately trying to win, but that game doesn't (and may never) exist because you have two goals (winning the match / having a good quality match) that often contradict.
*smblion* -"If you do this, I promise you your matches will become more fun, not only to play, but for other people to watch as well." Yes, I do what you're talking about now when I play No Mercy. The thing is, playing a game the way you're talking about is almost exactly what I'm proposing, the only difference is the engine would be set up to enhance this experience.
*action937*-"The other problem i see is how this would impact, say, a battle royal, or a royal rumble. Even a triple threat." That's where I think this game would be it's funnest. Again, if gameplay is built without keeping kayfabe in mind, then you realize that the matches that are harder to work in real life (battle royals, ladder matches, etc.) are the ones that should be harder in the game. So for a battle royal, the challenge is while you are working with another person in the ring trying to put on a good match, you have to worry about the other people in the ring and not running into them (just as in real life). The way I see it, the gimmick matches should basically be the boss battles of the game because they have added challenges in trying to work a successful match.
As much as I admire your conviction and your ability to sell an idea, I don't see how this would possibly improve PWX's sales and market impact when you've attempted to push it into a niche market (people who want to 'work' matches rather than fight them) in an already niche market (people who want a more simulation alternative to Smackdown) and had no strong positive feedback whatsoever. For these reasons, I'm out.
As much as I admire your conviction and your ability to sell an idea, I don't see how this would possibly improve PWX's sales and market impact when you've attempted to push it into a niche market (people who want to 'work' matches rather than fight them) in an already niche market (people who want a more simulation alternative to Smackdown) and had no strong positive feedback whatsoever. For these reasons, I'm out.
Colly, As you said, PWX is already selling to a niche market. Because of this, the expectations for their sales and market impact are already lowered. My thinking is, if they just go for a more simulation approach then SvR or TNA impact, they're putting a ceiling over themselves. Even though it's an outside chance, if they actually do make some noise in the wrestling game genre and draw more customers then expected, THQ and Midway have the resources and staff to immitate whatever elements make PWX standout and improve on them, reaping the benefits of Dave and the crew's hard work. It's almost a no-win situation because if they don't do well, it's likely they won't aquire the financial backing for an improved version down the road, but if they do too well then the big companies are gonna say, "Hey, that engine is drawing some people in. Let's make ours more like that and put our superstars in the game." The only chance PWX really has of having a major impact as a fighting-style wrestling game is if this first release gets it poised on the edge of big success and that allows the team to aquire the finances and manpower to pull off a sequel that will be able to compete with the big two. On the other hand, if they break kayfabe and do a game where you work matches, they are doing something that neither THQ or Midway could take from them because WWE and TNA would never let a game come out that didn't portray wrestling as a real fight. Yes, it definitely pushes the game into a further niche market, but it also seperates PWX from the competition's ability to take a share of it's market. So I agree with you that the risk is ultimately higher if you went the worked matches route, but I also believe it raises the ceiling.
And I hate to go into salesman mode again, but some people really seem to be missing how a game like this could actually be fun. I guess this game is targeted not so much at the kids that watch and believe pro wrestling, but rather the teen/adults who watch it knowing it's a work and who think to themselves, "Man, I wish I could do that. I would put on a sick match." The story mode would probably be something where you start out at a training school and work your way up through indie feds. As you progressed you would pick up more moves until eventually you got into a major promotion. Along the way there could be backstage happenings (politics holding you back, real heat between you and other workers, steroids) that affect your path. Again, this is an area where PWX has the upper hand on THQ and Midway because they can portray the darker side of wrestling that WWE and TNA would never allow (just like Midway did with Blitz after the NFL pulled their liscence). Through your progression, you would at first be jobbing to people while trying to put on a good match. Eventually, if you'd worked enough good matches, you'd get the nod and start winning matches. I think the enjoyment from this game would be progressing through your career the same way a real wrestler does, by putting on good matches against a variety of opponent's, and eventually having your work acknowledged by the federation by putting the belt on you. I could go on for pages, so I'll stop.
Sounds like it could be a fun mode, but I wouldn't want the whole game to be like this. Good post though. I would like to eventually be able to script certain aspects of simulated matches (such as the finish, heel/face turns, outside interference) for e-fed purposes.
The casual gamer will still by a wrestling game...or at least the casual wrestling fan will by a wrestling game. Look at the recent release of Firepro R for the PS2, it is outselling a lot of games at the on-line retailers.
So, yes, casual gamers need to be catered too, in this niche, going for a niche in the niche is cutting off some potential revenue.
as I said, *I* would find the game enjoyable for awhile, but I wouldn't want PWX to be ONLY that type of game. As a seperate mode, it could be marketed towards those that find that type of play fun, but I do not think it should be the only thing the game is about.
[quote][cite] Tonzophunn:[/cite]I don't watch wrestling and sit there going I hope these guys put on the best match possible. I watch wrestling and say I hope so and so wins tonight.[/quote]
Once you learn how booking works, sadly, it takes just about all of the surprise out of wrestling. Once in awhile I'll see a match where I don't know who will win, but that's probably 5% of the time at best, so getting excited about who's going to win becomes less important than seeing a really good match to myself and folks like me :)
That's not to say there's a right or wrong way to enjoy it, I just wanted to offer some perspective from the other side :)
Well I think that statement shows how poorly wrestling promoters have been booking. When I was fanatical about wrestling there were still great matches where I didn't know the result. Granted I think it was due to a convincing performance by the wrestlers but thats not encouraged anymore.
Really I think thats due to the fact that performers have been so pushed and overworked where they simply cant put on good matches and survive. They are pushed to be physical with out the time to care for there bodies, pushed into spots and hardcore matches, pushed into wrestling hurt, pushed into being on the road working all year long, pushed into head and neck injuries. This has pushed them into debilitating injury's. Pushed them into scar tissue and snapped necks. Pushed them into repetitive injury and arthritis leaving cripples with short life spans. Pushed them towards abuse and addiction. Pushed into brain injury and mental illness. This industry is creating Chris Benoit's, Hayabusa's, Eddie Guerrero's, and how many other ruined lives?
For the record just to clarify that last part. I was suggesting that Chris Benoit's life as a pro wrestler affected his state of mind. I'm not trying to suggest that there is as any excuse for his horrible actions or that it what he did is in anyway anyones responsibility but his own. I do think that our society, employers such as wrestling promotions included, should do a better job of taking care of its people.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]Well I think that statement shows how poorly wrestling promoters have been booking. When I was fanatical about wrestling there were still great matches where I didn't know the result. Granted I think it was due to a convincing performance by the wrestlers but thats not encouraged anymore.[/quote]
That's true, I think it has gone downhill, tho a big part of it is that the 'classic' stories and gimmicks keep working. I'm sure if the fans stopped marking out so much they'd change the formula :)
On the other hand, my method of enjoying it has evolved, and now I'm more interested in the performance, the production, the backstage things.. Now instead of watching a fight, it's like watching a violent dance. When you get really amazing guys in there, even if you know the ending it can still be tons of fun to watch ;)
Oh well for the record I think that discussing the industry is very pertinent to the topic. For someone to enjoy a professional wrestling game for any length of time, they will eventually have to find professional wrestling entertaining.
So is wrestling more entertaining when all of your enjoyment is derived from the reality or is it more entertaining as a fantasy? Is it more fun to think about how someone should book a match or is it more fun to think about how someone should win a match?
Personally my favorite moments watching wrestling all come from when I have been able to suspend disbelief, be shocked, be surprised, be amazed, and be sitting at the edge of my seat when not on my feet. People do not have those moments very often when the watch wrestling now. Would it not be amazing to experience these moments first hand in a video game?
I think that PWX could give people a chance to have those moments. I think that PWX could give people a chance to live a fantasy, to be doing moves to your opponent rather than with them, to react, to fight to win. Thats the type of fantasy that makes video games magical. Thats the type of fantasy that allows people to imagine and that brings games out of industry and into art.
Business sucks I don't want to work when I'm playing a game.
I'm definitely gonna chime in on the whole "state of the industry" sub-topic that smblion and punkdraco have branched off on. But first I wanted respond to Monitor.
First off Monitor, and I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, are you a moderator? Because you seem to be fighting this idea more then anyone else and you also seem the most adament about PWX not deviating from their gameplan.
"The casual gamer will still by a wrestling game...or at least the casual wrestling fan will by a wrestling game. Look at the recent release of Firepro R for the PS2, it is outselling a lot of games at the on-line retailers." I think this is a little misleading because you're making a connection where there really isn't one. I agree that casual wrestling fans still buy wrestling games, but I don't think casual gamers who aren't casual wrestling fans make up the majority of people who buy SvR. I think the people who buy wrestling games almost entirely consists of the overlap of casual wrestling fans who are also casual gamers. And within that group of wrestling fan-gamers, there's a slightly smaller portion of people who are either hardcore wrestling fans or hardcore gamers, and those are the people who bought Firepro R, and those are the type of people who I believe want a game like this.
"So, yes, casual gamers need to be catered too, in this niche, going for a niche in the niche is cutting off some potential revenue." I know that in any business, you try to cater to the biggest audience possible because there's more revenue to be had. However, you have to factor in your competition when you market a product, and if you don't stand much of a chance against your competitors with one part of the market, you have to try to tap into another part of the market that your competitors can't tap into. That's been my biggest selling point for this worked match engine; PWX has the oppurtunity to tap a part of the market that WWE and TNA can't and won't touch. This same principal also applies to my suggestion for PWX showing the darker side of wrestling (politics, substance abuse, real heat between workers) that WWE hides from their audience at any cost. They can cater to a bigger audience by going the fighting game route and wind up taking a small share of that market because they have THQ and Midway looming over them, OR they could go the work-a-match engine style and cater to a much smaller audience but wind up taking a huge share of that smaller market. So I guess it's a question that really does't have an answer. Which is bigger, the smaller slice of the bigger pie or the bigger slice of the smaller pie?
"As a seperate mode, it could be marketed towards those that find that type of play fun, but I do not think it should be the only thing the game is about." I have to admit, my opinion has been slightly swayed through this discussion and I now think it probably would be better to offer see this as an expansion pack or a different mode of play in PWX as opposed to the complete game (at least right off the bat, I do think introduced gradually this sort of game could stand as it's own game). This wouldn't be easy because you would basically have to program two similar-yet-different gameplay engines into the same game. This was just a suggestion I was hoping Dave and the gang would consider if they haven't already. Even though I've been arguing about why I think a worked match engine is a better approach then the one PWX is taking now, I'm still going to support PWX by buying whatever game they put out because I have so much admiration for a group who's putting a lot on the line to bring wrestling game enthusiasts what they've been begging for. The more I've been discussing it, the more I'm thinking I might try to make a prototype of this engine. It would only be one move, but I would try to make it so people could see the hold and release mechanic and the weak move/botch consequences.
As far as the state of wrestling right now, I completely agree that the industry is in shambles. Vince McMahon has provided some of the most memorable wretling moments in any wrestling fans life, but right now he's single-handedly alienating the fans and destroying his workers. The fans have been alienated because the writing for WWE (and even for TNA) has been piss-poor from the little I've watched over the last couple years. WWE has regressed back to the dark ages where the majority of their superstars don't really have a gimmick or back story and the same handful of guys are always on the TV screen. There's little to no emphasis on the actual work in the ring and they've completely oversaturated their product with the soap opera aspect of pro wrestling. TNA is basicallly WCW 2007 because they've got these great workers who can also cut promos wasting away in the mid/lower midcard ranks, and the main event scene is dominated by WWE castoffs. Also, Vince Russo's adolescent-humored writing is staler then year old bread. Both feds are riding these older big name guys into the ground so they can keep the younger fan base who recognize these guys' names and still shill out money just for the names on the card, but when these older guys finally step away from the game they are gonna be screwed because they haven't developed the next generation of big name stars. And as far as the behind the scenes stuff goes, Vince McMahon should be ashamed. He may not say directly, "You should be taking steroids," but when you give guys like Khali, Cena, and Batista monster pushes when they really haven't paid their dues and can't work a great match, you're letting your workers know, "You don't have to be a great wrestler, just get big and I'll push you." The second biggest problem is the schedule these guys have to endure. When you're on the road 300+ days a year and taking a pounding night after night with no real recovery time, you almost have no choice but to turn to substance abuse both as an escape and as way of numbing yourself so you can get into the ring and earn your paycheck. With all the guys who are tired, and hurt, and have some sort of drug in their system, and still go out and try to perform, it's a wonder that more guys don't wind up seriously injuring themselves. As I see it, the industry is going to continue to decline until it gets to the point where WWE no longer has enough power to hold over it's workers that they'll demand a change and work less dates with less travel. Case-in-point is the federation ROH. These guys only work every couple of weeks and as a result they're healthier, they're happier, and they wind up putting on much better matches everytime out. Nigel McGuiness (the current world champ) has said that they are conciously trying to push the industry in the direction of working fewer dates because although you sacrifice making more money, you can still live comfortably and you also have a much better chance of keeping your personal and family life in order.
It just doesn't sound fun to me. I mean you're literally taking the competative nature of the supposed sport and turning it into creating a great performance as the primary goal. You might as well create a game where the goal is to wow the audience by putting on a killer production of west side story. It just doesn't lend itself well to a game.
Since the main goal of your game is not to win the match, at some point there will be a match that you're supposed to lose. Therefore you'll spend awhile on creating a killer match and take the pinfall. I just can't get excited over someone or something (the cpu) saying "Wow, what a loss! You lost like a champ! good Job - the company is proud."
And believe me, I LOVE your out of the box thinking. Anything beyond strike/grapple, I love to hear. And I love the risk/reward aspect of it too. But it's just too weird for me.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite] I think that PWX could give people a chance to have those moments. I think that PWX could give people a chance to live a fantasy, to be doing moves to your opponent rather than with them, to react, to fight to win. Thats the type of fantasy that makes video games magical. Thats the type of fantasy that allows people to imagine and that brings games out of industry and into art.[/quote]
If the game gives more thrills than what one would normally see in kayfabed matches (in exchange for requiring a greater suspension of disbelief), it would be little better than an arcade fighting game with a caw feature.
You just couldn't leave well enough alone could ya? You just restoked my argumentative fire action937 :)
"I mean you're literally taking the competative nature of the supposed sport and turning it into creating a great performance as the primary goal. You might as well create a game where the goal is to wow the audience by putting on a killer production of west side story."
Not so at all. There is inherently a competative nature in putting on a great performance. Look at skating games, these are games where you're putting on a performance and trying to outperform other people. The same goes for rhythm games like guitar hero. I think the Tony Hawk games and Guitar Hero games have sold more then a West Side Story game.
"I just can't get excited over someone or something (the cpu) saying "Wow, what a loss! You lost like a champ! good Job - the company is proud." Again, you're thinking in kayfabe. When you put on a great performance and lose (or do the job as they say) then the company's owner or booker usually will come up to you and say, "Great match. You made you and your opponent look really good. Keep this up, and soon we'll be giving you the wins." Again, this whole idea operates on the presmise that the player is someone who respects wrestling even when they know it's choreographed.
Maybe that's the flaw in my idea; I'm overestimating the amount of people out there who not only appreciate how much goes into putting on a good match, put also know how wrestlers actually work a match. I've watched enough shoot interviews and secrets of the ring DVDs now to know how matches work inside and out. It's, as Terry Funk once put it, a beutiful, violent dance. There's this improvised choreography mixed in with the athletic, painful stunts and at the same time there's a story being played out. The fun of the game would come from your freedom in creating and telling stories with those matches as well as the challenges that you have to overcome to make it look good. And in the midst of this cooperation between the two wrestlers, there really is a competitive aspect; they want to put on a good match so they both look better, and at the same time they want to make sure that they look like the better wrestler in that particular match. It's such an amazing balancing act of cooperation and compeititon.
I'm an Indy worker so I understand what you are trying to get at but it is in now way what I want out of PWX. I don't want EWR with 3d graphics. I want a No Mercy/Fire-Pro style arcade wrestling game with a CAW mode and a decent story mode. I don't care about 5-star matches or backstage politics being in a wrestling game. I'm not trying to be a dick but it seems you think the reason why nobody really likes your idea is because they don't understand it. I'm pretty sure the people who dislike it do because they enjoy kayfabe and they like it in their wrestling games.
I think this is a really good idea but I'll echo the sentiments of the others that have replied. I do not think it is a good idea for PWX. Many people want PWX because they aren't satisfied with the crap that THQ puts out every year. The goal for PWX is basically to take a few steps back from the simplified gameplay of those games and put the deep and enjoyable gameplay back into North American wrestling games. This is the step that PWX needs to make first and it is the desire of nearly all of it's fanbase.
You say that there may not be enough people to support this model and that something more unique could create a larger customer base. That very well may end up being the case but I'd rather see PWX end up making the game as planned and falling a bit short of being able to make a sequel than taking a big risk like this and watching Dave love his shirt.
Your ideas are great and I think I would probably really enjoy a game like this but I think it would do better as a side project once PWX has been released and has established a name for itself.
PWX could still break kayfabe in some regards without completely revamping the gameplay. Simple elements like maybe being told to job in certain instances early in your career, or being told to job to a new up and comer later on in your career (when and if a story mode is introduced).
By the way this is one of the best topics I've seen on these boards so far. Great Thread!!
Sorry for the silence the last few days especially with fantastically debated topics like this one! Jakeshark, thank you for bringing this level of discussion to the forum. Very much appreciate your time, effort, and support!
As for breaking kayfabe we are approaching the subject in a small way in two cases. First, the story mode draft written so far walks the kayfabe line very tightly without going too far in either direction. I think you'll love it. But with the story mode not being part of Uprising it's a shame you won't experience yet. Second, we are looking to add an audience rating similar to what Fire Pro has done in the past (and Revenge to a certain extent with the scoring system). But again, we're a long way from saying, "core gameplay is perfect so lets move on to something else."
I think the concept of toying with kayfabe has merit and is worth exploring. While I wouldn't completely break kayfabe in every aspect of PWX for reason others have stated above I do believe we can play with it a little and open up some fresh avenues to explore.
If PWX can let players do all the things that are done in a great match while balancing game play to allow for the most completive and diverse matches possible I do not see rating matches in the game being at all important. In fact, if the game engine is made right I think it will make a crowd reaction rating pointless, all that would be needed is good crowd reactions in game.
I also think that because any game that breaks kayfabe will have to built upon a kayfabe game, the quality of the game will be based on how well the kayfabe game works. I also think trying to make a kayfabe game and break kayfabe, or trying to make a game that does away with kayfabe entirely, will require more resources to do than the WGU will have any time soon. I think that if the WGU can make a great kayfabe game in PWX it would give them a basis to properly explore the kayfabe breaking ideas. That said there interesting and we should keep talking about them.
Boy, I thought this thread was dead but I'm glad to see this idea is generating some very thoughtful arguments on both sides. Again, I'm gonna try to reply to everyone who replied to my last post. Obviously, first, I gotta respond to Dave. He is the savior of wrestling gaming, so he deserves his own post.
Dave, "First, the story mode draft written so far walks the kayfabe line very tightly without going too far in either direction. " This is very encouraging news. As I mentioned before, although some would say that PWX's lack of having either a WWE or TNA brand name attatched to it will hurt it's chances, I think that it really gives you guys SO much more freedom in how true your representation of the professional wrestling industry can be. I compare your situation to that of Midway when it lost it's NFL license. Many expected them to discontinue the Blitz line of games and go, "Well, we're doomed cause we won't have any stars to sell our game". Instead, they realized they could have the darker, more behind the scenes happenings in their game because they no longer had the NFL trying to uphold it's image and telling them what they couldn't do. As I understand it, Blitz did quite well sales wise because they were offering something that hadn't been seen in a football game before. I'm not saying there has to be a "put the needle in your vain" mini-game or anything like that, but any time that you take the players further behind the curtain then WWE or TNA are willing to go in their games, you're offering gamers something that no other wrestling game can offer. "Second, we are looking to add an audience rating similar to what Fire Pro has done in the past (and Revenge to a certain extent with the scoring system). " I was baffled that Revenge didn't expand on their scoring system to come up with an adequate match rating system. What's better at the end of a multiplayer match when you can point out to your friends, "Well, you stole the pin, but I had the better match"? I think that people will want to play a game more when instead of telling their friends, "Man, I had a sick match. There was this one spot... I guess you had to see it." they can say, "I had a 4 and 1/2 star match. I did a balcony dive and like 3 false finishes." Players should be rewarded in some visual, quantifiable way for having a good match because it will make them want to play the game again and again and again trying to get that 5-star rating. "But again, we're a long way from saying, 'core gameplay is perfect so lets move on to something else.'" I know this has been your motto all along, but it's still music to all of our ears to here the person in charge of making a wrestling game say that core gameplay should be perfect before anything else. This is the reason I will happily hand over some of my money to you. Thanks for taking the time to chime in, keep up the good work and I can't wait to get Uprising.
drastab The Skate/Tony Hawk comparison is actually one I've thought to myself many times. Activision is doing with Tony Hawk what THQ has done to SvR. The first game in the series was good and had some innovative stuff for the times, but as the series has progressed the flaws in the engine have been revealed. Now, the lastest games in the series are just trying to compensate for the poor gameplay by adding tons of different modes and over the top fireworks. For Tony Hawk, they've gotten to the point where your grinding on the top of the empire state building and for SvR you're having elimination chambers. Skate is the game that reinvented the skating genre. Tony Hawk now can't keep getting by with the same sub-par gameplay because it doesn't have a monopoly on the genre. I think that eventually wrestling games will reach the realization that the creators of skate did; hardware power that's available now shouldn't be used to have the same game engines with better graphics, hardware power should be used to set up more complex gameplay engines that simulate real world physics. In Tony Hawk, all you have to do is press one button and then hold another and you can grind on anything despite what angle you take or how big of an ollie you pulled off. In Skate, the engine is programmed so that there is an actual collision detection between the skateboards trucks and the railing. To do a grind, you actually have to do a grind like in real life. I think that the next big evolution in wrestling games, outside of my genius kayfabe breaking ;-) , will be physics simulation and collision detection. Instead of setting guys up on a table and pressing a graple button to do a canned animation through a table, you'll actually have to position the table so that when you throw your opponent or slam your opponent they will actually naturally collide with the table (if it's in their path) and go through it.
esteel20 "I don't want EWR with 3d graphics." That's not really what I'm proposing because I don't think anybody wants that. "Dude, check out the 3D booker. Look how well modeled his fat rolls are. Look at how sharp the texture for his ever-present five o' clock shadow is!"
"It seems you think the reason why nobody really likes your idea is because they don't understand it" Admitted, my little rant about if people really appreciate the art of putting together a good match was partly out of frustration that I wasn't expressing myself properly. I am absolutely content with the idea that some people completely understand my idea and don't find it enjoyable. I guess what I was saying was that I felt like the people who were giving me the, "That's a stupid idea. That's just dumb." response are people who don't totally understand how matches come together and the risk that's involved in every single move performed. If I'm wrong and those people do know their stuff, then I'm totally fine with them not liking my idea. It's impossible to get everyone to agree on anything.
Mad Dogg "The goal for PWX is basically to take a few steps back from the simplified gameplay of those games and put the deep and enjoyable gameplay back into North American wrestling games. This is the step that PWX needs to make first and it is the desire of nearly all of it's fanbase." Yeah, I'm with you. As I said a few posts ago, I've concluded after my first post that the game I'm proposing is not what PWX has to be out of the gate. Dave and the crew have spent so much time getting the PWX name and concept out there that changing the core idea of the game at this point wouldn't help anything. I'm really glad to hear Dave say that they're planning on toeing the kayfabe line in the story mode. Even still, I think somewhere down the line it would at least be worth trying as an additional mode in an update or expansion pack.
Pun Draco I guess I'd like to then pose this question; can anyone else think of any way that PWX could incorporate kayfabe breaking in subtle ways that wouldn't require altering the gameplay engine? My first thought is that if there's a training camp / tutorial in the game. It can be a tounge in cheek thing where after your trainer does a move on you to demonstrate he says something like, "Don't forget to tuck your chin and throw out your arms when you hit the mat. Your gonna break your ass if you take em like that." or after you do a move on him he can say, "You threw me a little hard that time. I'd shoot on you if you pulled that in the middle of a match."
[quote][cite] Jakeshark:[/cite]*InTheZone*-"I think you've gone about it all wrong. Rather than the PLAYER being responsible for ensuring a match is a good quality classic, the game should be programmed as such BY DEFAULT, so that a player may play to win and not HAVE to focus on having a match that isn't poor in quality." The game that you speak of where the matches play out as smoothly as they do on TV is the same game that THQ has been striving for since WCW vs. The World came out on Playstation 1. And as of right now, they're only slightly closer then they were back then. That's why I'm saying that there should be a game where the goal is to put on a good match. The type of engine where you're competing with another player like a fighting game but it plays out like a wrestling match is next to impossible. I would LOVE a game where by defualt the matches look great but you're ultimately trying to win, but that game doesn't (and may never) exist because you have two goals (winning the match / having a good quality match) that often contradict.[/quote]
That's why I feel the gameplay is THE most important feature, to get as close as possible to that theoretical game in which you don't need to TRY to have a good match. This is why I posted the thread on how long matches go, and what can be used to end a match.
I believe the basis to creating this theoretical game is this; making sure that it requires a fair good amount of damage to a player to get the pin. In games past, you don't need to beat your opponent down for long before you can grab a win, and this is wrong; it becomes a squash match rather than a classic match. If matches went for longer, you'd have a classic match in which both players keep fighting back and coming at the other.
You have said "And in the midst of this cooperation between the two wrestlers, there really is a competitive aspect; they want to put on a good match so they both look better, and at the same time they want to make sure that they look like the better wrestler in that particular match. It's such an amazing balancing act of cooperation and compeititon."
But what if it's single player? then you're basically at the mercy of the computer AI deciding whether or not it messes up or going with the flow.
Come to think of it, this idea could be an outstanding wrestling CO-OP multiplayer possiblity. Combined with an online ranking system, players would be motivated to get high scores and not botch each others moves. During a move, one wrestler would have his responsibilities of carrying out the move and the other carrying out the receiving. Then you're almost ranked by points rather than by wins/losses.
The only problem with that is the total elimintation of any kind of squash match.
Oh, I need to catch up on the rest of the thread, but I want to make sure to point out that I am not a moderator or in anyway officially connected to the game.
I'm just a long time wrestling game fan with an opinion. 8)
I'm not fighting the idea either...I've said I would find something like this entertaining. I just don't think it would sell all that well to non-hardcore wrestling fans as a prodcut on it's own. With ONLY the type of game play you are suggesting. As a section of the game, I think it could be a great feature to draw in some people who might pass on it originally.
It's all in the balancing act , I guess is what I am saying.
I, personally, believe that this is the post of the year. But I don't think that many others think so, tough.
Don't get me wrong. Your idea is absoletely great, and it's exactly what I want to do when I play a wrestling game: I want to play a great wrestling match. But does the public think so, too? Not really. Most people want to win, they want to unlock as many things as fast as possible, maybe to impress their friends. And most wrestling-game-buyers are 10-year-old WWE-marks, that have no idea about Kayfabe, botched moves, real injuries and such.
I think that that idea should be realized - as good as possible, but not in PWX. Altough it's a great concept, it won't have much success on the market. If this is ever gonna be realized, it'll be a niche-titel like so many other great games. Everyone that likes the concept would have the fun of his life with, most other people not, so it shouldn't be in the FIRST version of PWX.
So what about 2 different versions of PWX? The first one is the game that's beeing produced for years now, and the 2nd one that will follow it (maybe: "PWX: Breaking Kayfabe") will realise this concept. So everyone should be happy, the fun-game-fans and the fanatics of that kind of games.
Well, at the moment, I still think you are a genius.
I'm really happy to see that so many people have enjoyed discussing this idea, regardless of their opinion. I'm hearing very convincing stuff from both sides and I think the best part of this is that it's beneficial to Dave and the crew because we're getting into a really deep level of what makes a good wrestling game and what we want to see that hasn't been done yet.
I guess it got burried in one of my long-winded replies, but I definitely have changed my stance and now I don't think that the game I suggested is what PWX needs to be right off the bat. I do think Dave and the gang need to take advantage of the fact that they have the option to break kayfabe when and how they want to. Dave was nice enough to chime in and let us know they'll be "toeing the kayfabe line" in the story mode. After all the discussion we've had, I think business-wise that's the best way to go. I'm thinking about starting another thread about subtle ways they can break kayfabe as opposed to having a gameplay engine that forces it on you. I don't wanna create an extra thread if it's unecessary though so if someone knows the forum ettiquette please let me know.
I think from the responses that my idea got that the only way a game like the one I'm suggesting is gonna be made is if it's made by a person in the mold of Mdickie or Adam Ryland who happens to have a deep understanding of the industry, a passion for game programming, no budget, and a lot of extra time on their hands. The first versions to come out would just be showing off the engine and the concept, and then if the demand is there, revised versions come out with better graphics and sound and refinements to the gameplay. Ultimately, you would just have to hope it got enough downloads and enough of a loyal fanbase to warrant doing an internet-only distribution for like $10-$20. Anyone have Mdickie's contact info? (I kid of course.)
Come to think of it, this idea could be an outstanding wrestling CO-OP multiplayer possiblity. Combined with an online ranking system, players would be motivated to get high scores and not botch each others moves. During a move, one wrestler would have his responsibilities of carrying out the move and the other carrying out the receiving. Then you're almost ranked by points rather than by wins/losses.
The only problem with that is the total elimintation of any kind of squash match.[/quote]
This is an excellent idea. A gameplay mode such as the one that Jakeshark has proposed would truly be most enjoyable playing with someone else. I imagine the A.I. programming would be an absolute nightmare when playing against the CPU. If a mode like this was included in the final version of PWX I would probably actually be interested in playing against/with other people online. Playing against someone online to win is boring IMO, people spam cheap moves and it usually seems like it's just all about winning at all costs and not at all about putting on a good match.
Online play is the true calling for this feature. Letting people play against each other with the sliders for moves stiffness selling that Jakeshark discussed and a comprehensive (or even basic) match scoring system would add some real life to online play. I'd much rather work with others to get as many 5 star matches as possible to top a leaderboard than enduring countless spam battles to get atop a competitive leaderboard.
Even just a single one on one match for this mode would be fine. I imagine tag matches etc. would take a lot more resources for A.I. programming. Perhaps a tag team match in online "work mode" could be implemented in a future version.
We've all seemed to reach an understanding that PWX couldn't base it's entire gameplay around this concept but perhaps including a basic mode such as this could be a possiblility? I for one think it would be amazing and could really give some legs to online play.
[quote][cite] Jakeshark:[/cite]
I'm thinking about starting another thread about subtle ways they can break kayfabe as opposed to having a gameplay engine that forces it on you. I don't wanna create an extra thread if it's unecessary though so if someone knows the forum ettiquette please let me know.[/quote]
Creating another separate thread as an off-shoot of this great discussion sounds like a good idea to me. If we can get the same quality of discussion out of that one I'm sure it would leave Dave and the crew with a lot of good ideas for more simple ways to exploit one of the greatest advantages they have.
As far as etiquette is concerned I'm sure no one would mind seeing another of these great threads on the board here. And I believe that the focus of this thread has changed enough to warrant a new one. It would definitely help avoid confusion to new readers.
Once again thanks for starting this awesome thread.