This is a huge concern of mine from previous wrestling games, and one of the things that will be critical to my utmost enjoyment of PWX gameplay.
You'll see in other wrestling games that a wrestler can be pinned fairly easily, and matches just don't take long enough. You often see wrestlers pinning one another after a clothesline, or some other feeble move that in reality would never be used to win a match. This irritates me because it is very unrealistic; in wrestling, it will 99% of the time take a finisher or a surprise pinning combination to get the win, and I've always wanted games to play out this way.
Matches need to be able to keep going, as in - "How the hell did he kick out of that?!" That is something that makes wrestling great, but it's absence from wrestling games makes them disappointing.
Perhaps it should be designed so that 99% of the time, it will require a finisher or a surprise pinning combination - a well-timed rollup, or sunset flip, after a hard-fought match - to get the win. Perhaps even requiring more than one finisher, depending on the calibre of wrestlers, or even the event/arena (think HBK vs. Angle kicking out of finishers at Wrestlemania).
I think this will make the gameplay that much better, as it will let you play out classic matches with legendary back-and-forths, which only finish with a deserving end.
Even if this was optional, such as a slider that can be adjusted determining the amount of damage needed to pin, this would be good.
See I think matches should be able to end with a non finisher. A clothesline out of nowhere would end a match. You see it in TNA and ROH where a finisher may not be the finish. I mean... a right hand out of no where would be a cool finish etc.
[quote][cite] sirdingus:[/cite]See I think matches should be able to end with a non finisher. A clothesline out of nowhere would end a match. You see it in TNA and ROH where a finisher may not be the finish. I mean... a right hand out of no where would be a cool finish etc.[/quote] I pretty much agree with this. I would hate to play a game that 90% of the time took a finisher to win.
I don't see how anybody could enjoy a match that was going well and hard-fought, and then ends with something as piss-weak as a shoulder block. Not to mention if you do about 10 moves, you can pin your opponent, and that's pathetic.
I think arm drags should almost never end a match, unless the guy is so wounded he can't move. However finishers only? That's stupid. Top rope moves should end a match even if not finishers, as should any strong grapple.
[quote][cite] dratsab:[/cite]I think arm drags should almost never end a match, unless the guy is so wounded he can't move. However finishers only? That's stupid. Top rope moves should end a match even if not finishers, as should any strong grapple.[/quote]
I said 90% of the time, as in you'll need to bash the hell out of your opponent to be able to pin them with a top rope move or strong grapple. It's possible, but far from easy, which is how I think it should be.
It seems that a fair few people are opposed to it, so I'd suggest considering making it optional via a slider or some other mechanism.
The general principle of making more damage necessary for a pin - regardless of which move scores that pin - is something that I don't percieve anybody would argue with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd assert that classic, reasonable length matches are better than 5 minute squashes in wrestling games.
[quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite]I don't see how anybody could enjoy a match that was going well and hard-fought, and then ends with something as piss-weak as a shoulder block. Not to mention if you do about 10 moves, you can pin your opponent, and that's pathetic.[/quote] Dude I don't get you why not a fast match I mean we have seen such matches a lot of them.I know from time to time it would be cool to fighht the guy till he can't stand up but i sometimes like fast matches: The bell rings the guy does a closeline and wins it happens fairly often as well.
[quote][cite] valdik:[/cite][quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite]I don't see how anybody could enjoy a match that was going well and hard-fought, and then ends with something as piss-weak as a shoulder block. Not to mention if you do about 10 moves, you can pin your opponent, and that's pathetic.[/quote] Dude I don't get you why not a fast match I mean we have seen such matches a lot of them.I know from time to time it would be cool to fighht the guy till he can't stand up but i sometimes like fast matches: The bell rings the guy does a closeline and wins it happens fairly often as well.[/quote]
I just don't get it. Matches should, in my opinion, go for a decent length of time before ending... I'd feel ripped off if that scenario happened in real life, and I'd feel like it wasn't even worth starting the match if it happened in the game.
Quick squash matches DO happen, so I can live with them from time to time.
Firepro/KOC has really fixed this problem, IMO. You can STILL get a Critical at any time in a match, so you MAY get a real quick match (I've had matches get a critical under 15 seconds, but NOT regularly) They have different critical types you set, so only certain moves you perform CAN possible get that critical. If it is set to Finisher Only then the odds of a real early critical are pretty remote as most times if you try a move designated finisher early in the match it will be blocked or reveresed automatically. No, the real earyl criticals seem to come from people who have Striking as thier critical type, or Technical.
The way to prevent lame finishes (i.e. Snapmare to pinfall) is all in the CPU Logic settings. Those games have the matches broken down into 3 sections - Small Damage, Medium Damage, Large/Near Death Damage.
Weak moves are set to be done at 0% in near death. If the CPU never performs the move when the opponent is ready to be pinned, then you do NOT get lame finishes. Of course if a HUMAN is playing they shouldn't be using those moves late in the match to prevent themselves from a lame finish.
I don't think you should be forced into long matches. No Mercy is good about this, alot of matches end in 3-10 minutes, and if the matches goes on for like 20 minutes you feel like it was a truly epic match, instead of being forced to wrestle that long of a match.
I do agree in wrestling matches it takes a finisher or a big move to almost always end a match & I would like to see this in wrestling games but it should not always take a finisher or a big move to always end a match. Their should never ever be any ABSOLUTES!
[quote][cite] Monitor:[/cite]There has to be a balance, I'll grant that.
Quick squash matches DO happen, so I can live with them from time to time.
Firepro/KOC has really fixed this problem, IMO. You can STILL get a Critical at any time in a match, so you MAY get a real quick match (I've had matches get a critical under 15 seconds, but NOT regularly) They have different critical types you set, so only certain moves you perform CAN possible get that critical. If it is set to Finisher Only then the odds of a real early critical are pretty remote as most times if you try a move designated finisher early in the match it will be blocked or reveresed automatically. No, the real earyl criticals seem to come from people who have Striking as thier critical type, or Technical.
The way to prevent lame finishes (i.e. Snapmare to pinfall) is all in the CPU Logic settings. Those games have the matches broken down into 3 sections - Small Damage, Medium Damage, Large/Near Death Damage.
Weak moves are set to be done at 0% in near death. If the CPU never performs the move when the opponent is ready to be pinned, then you do NOT get lame finishes. Of course if a HUMAN is playing they shouldn't be using those moves late in the match to prevent themselves from a lame finish.[/quote]
That sounds like a very good system indeed, it would satisfy the problem thoroughly. Good job in raising that point.
Another example of how this annoys me, is that I never go for pins to try and beat opponents in Smackdown games often, because I know it CAN happen that if I pin off of a clothesline or some other weak move, there's a good chance it WILL pin them. Which isn't how it should be; I shouldn't have to avoid pinning an opponent, or 'string them along' and let them live, in order to NOT have a 3 minute, lame match. In the case of the Smackdown! games, I do.
You'll see in real life wrestling, they'll go for pins often, if only to weaken the opponent down rather than win. You can't do that in Smackdown! very often or for very long, or else you will actually end the match anticlimatically on a suplex or some other move as weak.
And to Road Warrior Ace, this seems to be a common misconception. I never said anything about absolutes; I said that 90% of the time it shouldn't end in a shmoz move. That is, there's a chance it can still happen, but it's very rare, few and far inbetween.
A match should not end with a snapmare or a armdrag. However, a clothesline or lariat is an acceptable finishing move today. Basically, I think a match should be able to end with any strong grapple or running strike.
[quote][cite] esteel20:[/cite]A match should not end with a snapmare or a armdrag. However, a clothesline or lariat is an acceptable finishing move today. Basically, I think a match should be able to end with any strong grapple or running strike.[/quote]
I don't have a problem with what move the finisher is, whether it's a clothesline or lariat - that's not the issue. My issue is that a regular, non-finisher move shouldn't be able to end the match as often as it can.
See I don't think we should designate how a match should end. It's like. Do you want every AJ Styles match to end with the Styles clash? Do you want every HHH match to end with the Pedigree? The Spinebuster isn't a finisher but it'd be nice if it ended a match. Why must a signature move end a match. It's way more unexpected (re: fun) when the finish is out of no where
I agree with Dratsab, strong grapples, most flying moves (maybe not axe handles), some running moves, and some non-finisher submissions (not rest holds) should be able to end the match sometimes, not as often as finishers though.
See suppose you're in a grueling 15 to 20 minute match. Both guys are bleeding. A small package to win seems fine to me, or a victory roll, or a german suplex with a bridge etc
I'm fine with heavy grapples, most flying moves, and the technical moves like small package/victory roll/bridging german suplex. But if the match consisted of a 2 minutes of catch wrestling and one guy scores a piledriver or a spinebuster and pins him to win. I call that a joke match. I won't believe it if they went through a grueling match and lose to a weak clothesline. Come on, you took all that and your going to fall to a mere clothesline!!! Not saying clotheslines/lariats can't be powerful, JBL and Hogan (Japan) are clear exceptions with their Clotheslines/Lariats). The only exception is a squash match or the opponent has an advantage (Goldberg vs. Gillberg, Khali vs. Hornswaggle).
To me a match needs to go through three stages to be a good match. 1. The early stage, where the light grapples and technical/catch wrestling or some light brawling start the match. 2. The middle stage, where they use heavy grapples, high flying or submission moves to gain the advantage. 3. The Finisher stage, where the heaviest and toughest moves are used to finish the opponent. Of course it doesn't limit it to those kind of moves.
I used to write matches for my eFed and this is what I used as a personal guideline. This was used for 5 minute matches or even hour long matches. Where each stage is lengthened/shortened and the transitions are very blurry/clear to catch. If PWX could have matches that have these stages... I <3 PWX forever!
[quote][cite] sirdingus:[/cite]See suppose you're in a grueling 15 to 20 minute match. Both guys are bleeding. A small package to win seems fine to me, or a victory roll, or a german suplex with a bridge etc[/quote]
'Kay, this is the last time I'll say it, so please read what I write.
That is EXACTLY what I suggested in my first post. That it takes a long time and is rare to finish a match with non-finishers such as in your scenario. I never said it should ALWAYS be a finisher, and I'm not going to reiterate that for a third time.
The examples you all have given fit exactly into what I said, which is that it should be more often that a win happens with a finisher than a regular move. Not impossible for the latter to happen, but rare and the match must be hard fought.
CaMacKid, I definately agree with your principles on how a match should flow.