First of all, let me make clear what my definition of success is as it applies to PWX. I think it needs to fulfill its mantra of being for fans and by fans. That doesn't mean it has to repeat it with great frequency. It needs to be made, and make enough money to make Dave and his family comfortable. It also has to secure funding, and a market, for a sequel.
Most importantly it has to be fun to play, and it has to provide an experience other games do not. To me, those last to aspects of success are also the keys to success overall. I also thinking that focusing on an aspect of wrestling games ignored by competitors will be important. As will be focusing on what will ultimately decide the fun factor and replay value. In the end that will be in ring game play.
I do believe that gameplay is the end all be all of any wrestling game but I also think that PWX's potential moddability will be what makes it truly successful. For Example, The Sims 2 is a good game by itself but its huge online modding community is what truly makes it one of the most popular games ever. I could be a little biased though because I would take moddability over chain wrestling, weight detection, rest holds, and a lot of other things that have been suggested for the game mechanics. Oh and a very good topic if I do so say so myself.
Without a doubt GAMEPLAY will make PWX successful. They are alot of us out there who yearned for years for a worthy sequel to No Mercy (only to be dissapointed time & time again) & if PWX have the right gameplay believe me it will be successful. But they are secondary things that follow gameplay that is also important like a very good CAW (with moddability) & at least a decent amount of matches & a good story mode.
Of course when we talk about a product being successfull we gotta sell a certain amount of copies of that product in order to accomplish this & in order to better the odds of a product being successful you gotta ADVERTISE. We have to make sure people know PWX is out there.
If you got the above things I mentioned then chances are PWX will be successful.
I was playing No Mercy before, and actually one of the things that I really don't like is how a lot of the moves just lack impact and damage, while others do way too much. Why are piledrivers and vertical suplexes so fucking weak? At least in the Smackdown games you can pin after them and it kinda makes sense.
[quote][cite] Spunk:[/cite]I was playing No Mercy before, and actually one of the things that I really don't like is how a lot of the moves just lack impact and damage, while others do way too much. Why are piledrivers and vertical suplexes so fucking weak? At least in the Smackdown games you can pin after them and it kinda makes sense.[/quote]
Sure No Mercy isn't perfect i agree but man it was fun although somethings did piss me off like spamming the taunt stick to get your energy level up, & that weight detection system was far from perfect & another thing was although the caw was very good it could've been better in some aspects like the Logic.
As others have said, a fluent and realistic gameplay system is number one.
That's not to say that other areas of the game, such as a story mode, in-depth customization, great moves etc. aren't important; but these are the supporting cast to the gameplay in a way. I'm very glad that PWX has recognized this.
Honestly, I think making mods is great, I hope PWX does make it easy for people to do so.
That said, I think its something of a cop out to count on any user generated material. What I mean by that is that if developers ever expect their game to be successful from mods, they usual aim low and fall short. Counter Strike was so great because Half Life was a great stand alone game. Mods can add tremendous value to a game, but I think that expecting any value from that during development would be a case of counting your eggs before you hatch.
I for one do not want to count on mods to have fun with this game. There comes a time in some games lives when the standard game is so boring that all people play is the mods. If you dont like the mods, or the hassel of using the, your screwed. I don't want to see that happen to PWX. I think that it should be easy to mod,. but I think number one priority has to be making the stand alone as good as possible. In the end that will probably lead to better mods too. I just don't want ease if modding to ever take priority over the stand alone games quality.
A Fun game is a easy game that's why the fun factor can be achieved mainly thru the gameplay-I mean if you have to press 10 buttons for a move what fun whould that be? You also said "an experience that other games don't offer " I don't know what you mean by that but every game has it's own experience so no matter what pwx is believe me it will be an experience like no other. Also a few days ago I thought about the virtual worlds and I thought about wrestling games and then it hit me "Why do non-wrestling fans buy wrestling games " well people like exploring the game -the world of a game is all the arenas backrooms alleys and such(GTA is the best example I can give you for a popular virtual world game) imagine how fun would it be to be able to walk in a house and break every single part of it appart then get out on the street and get hit by a car or something.
So I think PWX will be succesful if the game had more "interaction" more arenas more room and on top of that a nicely written season mode(no necceraly complicated) and an easy gameplay
Is it really worth the effort for me to type a freaking Bible and try to make a point and guide discussion? Does any one else actually want to listen and debate or is this board here just so people can show blind support and shill ideas for moves arenas and characters? I'm sorry, but "Its already a success the fans love it" and that type of game worship really bothers me. I love what PWX could become at least as much as anyone, but I don't assume that it will be good just because everyone likes to say it will be. So my next point is that I think PWX will be successful if the fans who take so much pride in their relationship with game actually step up and make the game more than a No Mercy sequel or an arcade game. A random collection of animations, environments, and characters do not make a great game.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]Is it really worth the effort for me to type a freaking Bible and try to make a point and guide discussion? Does any one else actually want to listen and debate or is this board here just so people can show blind support and shill ideas for moves arenas and characters? I'm sorry, but "Its already a success the fans love it" and that type of game worship really bothers me. I love what PWX could become at least as much as anyone, but I don't assume that it will be good just because everyone likes to say it will be. So my next point is that I think PWX will be successful if the fans who take so much pride in their relationship with game actually step up and make the game more than a No Mercy sequel or an arcade game. A random collection of animations, environments, and characters do not make a great game.[/quote]
true man although you are talking complete crap you're right kinda
He is absolutely right. Plus, how is PWX already successful? This board has less than 100 registered users and only about 14 who actually post. That's not much of a fan base to me. Don't settle for mediocrity. This is how THQ and EA gets away with selling us the same game with a shiny new gimmick each year.
[quote][cite] spudz:[/cite]It's already sucessful The fans already love it.And that's all that matters really...[/quote]
Like mentioned before, there is no actual game yet. Its still a prototype of a prototype. What is there to love other than the concept of the project itself?
I believe if PWX broke the mold that Western wrestling games have been in for a while now and steered more towards the way FPR allows you to actually work a Pro Wrestling match, that would set it apart and make it successful. Because as much as Joe and Styles help out with the TNA game, Midway at heart is a western-based fighting game developer and no matter what that will be ever present in the TNA game. Because too many developers today are willing sacrifice a great simulation, that could be just as easy to get into with a bit of effort, for a simple arcade romp.
And the thing is, I know Dave and the guys are heading more in the sim direction by following Spike and AKI's lead, but the key is to represent EVERY situation in professional wrestling accurately. Especially if, as Dave put it, they wanted to represent all the different styles of professional wrestling. From the day I heard this, I knew what PWX selling point was. And I was really anticipating it because I've never played a game that gave me great lucha style matches, while equally giving me the more shoot-style puro stuff in the same engine, as well European and American styles. I'd hope at the end of everything you guys would be able to represent each style. I have ways other than specifically gameplay (more presentation-wise) that can set PWX apart, but gameplay is most important.
Maybe having a style specific controller set up or something. Like each style would have its own specific grapples/positions/situations but reversals and counters would universal so that all styles could defend against all styles but their offense is style specific. However, the means in which they react to each situation/position is still style specific. That way an MMA Figher for example, would have offensive moves and positions/situations that ONLY an MMA Fighter would use, but he could defend himself in any situation still reacting the way an MMA Fighter would. That way, a power brawler like Big Show wouldn't feel like just a bunch of power/brawler moves in a set. Because he'd not only use those types of moves but through the controller set up he'd feel like Big Show. And even then we'd never see Big Show counter an MMA Fighter's armbar by rolling through into a mount to slap on a choke. He's a brawler and as such his counter should be being able block the pressure of the armbar only to rollover onto his side, reach over with his other arm and smash the poor bastard in the face.
Dude I agree that almost every wrestling game out on the market is the same as the last one and that they don't try to make a wrestling simulator but for THQ hell even midway this is bussines people like arcade games. People like games.if it was like the real thing and it was a real wrestling simulator we wouldn't call it a game and probabbly if there was a wrestling simulator "a real one" out there THQ wouldn't release any more wrestling games I mean everyone right now is making a GAME not a simulator
That's why PWX would be different though. The problem I find is that no matter the genre, there have been very few simulator-based games that have been fun. PWX can change that by representing all styles.
I think its important to remember that PWX is being made for PC. That means you cant sit on your couch with a bunch of buddies and play it on your big screen tv. This game will be played in a different setting than other wrestling games. It wont be the arcade party game.
I also honestly believe that if PWX trys and makes a game that competes directly with WWE TNA or even Rumble Roses it will fail. It simply does not have the resources to compete directly with those guys. It has to provide an experience those games don't. It has to provide a completely different experience.
The problem is that a "wrestling simulator" is an oxymoron.
Wrestling by it's very nature is a performance... not an athletic competition. Wrestling in the Video Game sense IS a competition. Hense the paradox. You're trying to simulate something that isn't a true competition, but also make it a true competition. Can't be done.
in the video game, unless you decide to make it so offense and defense-minded, it will never truely simulate real pro-wrestling. There will always be an "arcadey" feel. If it really ever did go total sim, you'd have 1 person taking a beating for 3 minutes at a time. Even the best back and forth matches in rel life aren't even close to what it would be if wrestling was a competition. A true video game simulation of pro wrestling would more than likely mirror a UFC game.
I think that the main thing that will make this game a really great is the fact that almost everything in this game will be easy to update and get better, also it will have a ton of moves, maybe more than any other title.
Honestly I think the best thing PWX can do is spend a little less time animating moves and a lot more time animating selling animations and reversals.All the things that you see wrestlers do throughout a match that you wouldn't necessarily pick out in CAW. As far as offensive moves go, I think that giving people more scenarios in which to do moves is at least as important to giving people a lot of moves in general.
I for one think PWX would really sell itself short if the bulk of its entertainment came from seeing different moves. I think thats how it is in WWE games, but I also think thats done on purpose. If you have to make a new game every year to keep things interesting you'll make more money, never mind the fact that your not giving customers a product thats worth their money. I really think that most wrestling games are very predictable. I really think PWX could make things much less repetitive and more exiting. If your never sure how long someone will be stunned for, how they will sell a move, if they will reverse you, or if your going to reverse them, the game play will be focused around constantly reacting to your opponent, rather than just doing a pre-determined sequence of moves. For this to work game play will have to be tweaked enormously. Damage, fatigue, and any other information of a wrestler will have to constantly twaeked to keep things balanced. An element of chance must be involved, with risk possibly increasing due to other factors such as fatigue, and the danger of the move. Reversals can not be universal, you need to not know what your opponent will do in response to your attack.
Theres a lot of potential in the wrestling game genre that has not yet been realized. Aiming for a No Mercy two is selling yourself short. Trying to be like WWE games at all is ludicrous, there making yearly installments of something that sells because of a license. PWX could just be a stand alone great game that exposes wrestling fans and non wrestling fans to types of wrestling and gaming that they didn't know existed. Hell, trying to be like puro games is a mistake too, puro games are great in terms of the things they allow players to do, but they could do those things in ways which are a lot more fun.
If basic game play in PWX is more simple and intuitive than American games while being deeper in its advanced game play than puro games, it will be great. If it allows for more in ring scenarios than puro games while being better paced than American games, it will be great. If it provides gamers with a chance to build any wrestler of any style and have a strategy filled competition where they would have to react to any other type of wrestler, it will be great. If it keeps people from predicting the outcome of the match and each reaction of their opponent, while keeping them from frustration or boredom, it will be great. If it doesn't do these things, I think its missing out on its potential no matter how many moves it has.
Honestly, I would like PWX to be like Mario Cart. It didn't matter what character or weapon you had or what course you were on, or even if you won. The game play was so fun you just worked with what you had and enjoyed every minute of it. Getting the game play to be as deep and as fun as possible will pay off better in the long run than animation more moves ever will.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]Honestly I think the best thing PWX can do is spend a little less time animating moves and a lot more time animating selling animations and reversals.All the things that you see wrestlers do throughout a match that you wouldn't necessarily pick out in CAW. As far as offensive moves go, I think that giving people more scenarios in which to do moves is at least as important to giving people a lot of moves in general.[/quote]
100% agreed. That is something that I'd love in PWX, because it sets the structure and feel of the game apart, rather than just the included moves. These scenarios, reversals, situations etc. will basically make or break the reality of the gameplay flow in a match.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]I think its important to remember that PWX is being made for PC. That means you cant sit on your couch with a bunch of buddies and play it on your big screen tv. This game will be played in a different setting than other wrestling games. It wont be the arcade party game.[/quote]
I wouldn't say you're incorrect, but it will be possible and even probably in today's day and age, for people to play a game like this on their big screen TV, since most decent 3D cards provide TV output. I know my intention is to project the game onto my wall (We use a projector for our TV, it cost $650 after shipping), and use XBOX 360 controllers to play, so I can sit on my couch with a bunch of buddies ;)
In my opinion, PWX's #1 claim to fame will be it's moddability. Wrestling gamers like to customize things! :)
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite] Honestly, I would like PWX to be like Mario Cart. It didn't matter what character or weapon you had or what course you were on, or even if you won. The game play was so fun you just worked with what you had and enjoyed every minute of it. Getting the game play to be as deep and as fun as possible will pay off better in the long run than animation more moves ever will.[/quote]
This topic makes me happy we have this forum. I like the Mario Cart analogy and it clearly shows why the SvR system of rating wrestlers is a fun killer. Shouldn't you be able to have a match with any wrestler vs. any other wrestler and have fun? Can you? No. If your opponent picks HHH you've got maybe six other wrestlers you can pick from to have a balanced and fun experience. I don't like that at all.
I myself would love to play PWX with other people, and while there are ways to do that I think it needs to be very "one person at a computer" friendly. As for the modding thing I always end up getting pissed off at unblanced or buggy mods and I really would be disappointed if I had to really on user generated mods for the game to be fun. I think that if PWX really gets basic gameplay perfected it would give modders a much more solid foundation to build some cool things onto.
How about LAN multiplayer? I'm asking because a programmer I interviewed today seemed confident we could have LAN multiplayer up and running fairly easily because of the engine we're using. I've never done any LAN party play or anything so I'm a little out of touch with that whole scene.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]How about LAN multiplayer? I'm asking because a programmer I interviewed today seemed confident we could have LAN multiplayer up and running fairly easily because of the engine we're using. I've never done any LAN party play or anything so I'm a little out of touch with that whole scene.[/quote]
That would be fantastic. I'm not into LAN at all currently, and it would only be a wrestling game that would make me want to get into it. Tournaments or rankings, or forming stables or tag teams online would be fantastic.
I have a question about the 2player thing. Even if you don't have a lan connetion will you be able to play with another person just by using two controllers via usb ports?
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]As far as offensive moves go, I think that giving people more scenarios in which to do moves is at least as important to giving people a lot of moves in general.[/quote]
[quote][cite] InTheZone:[/cite]100% agreed. These scenarios, reversals, situations etc. will basically make or break the reality of the gameplay flow in a match.[/quote]
A game which had been developed under this maxim would feel less like the basic "strike/grapple/run" system (i.e. the basic gameplay of "wrestling games" for over 20 years now), and more like actual pro wrestling. That would make the game unique and memorable, albeit with a steeper learning curve.
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]I like the Mario Kart analogy [/quote]
Whilst I agree about the problems with Yukes' ratings system, would it not be better for this game to aspire to be the wrestling equivalent of GTR2 instead of Mario Kart?
[quote][cite] PWX_Dave:[/cite]How about LAN multiplayer? I'm asking because a programmer I interviewed today seemed confident we could have LAN multiplayer up and running fairly easily because of the engine we're using. I've never done any LAN party play or anything so I'm a little out of touch with that whole scene.[/quote]
I would love LAN support! I'm of the opinion that every option for getting more people playing is a good option :)
What sort of latencies would be minimum for a good experience? If you can support LAN play, it may be possible for people to use Hamachi or similar VPN tools to enable internet play as well. (Hamachi is a very simple VPN that allows for LAN gaming over the internet)