I guess you could say I'm rather out of the loop, but reading all of the recent newsletters, there is one thing that is kinda baffling to me; when exactly did balcony dives become a major selling point and something to spend hours troubleshooting and making perfect, as well as one of the key features in PWX?
I mean, I generally understand the idea of putting in some cool features for the pay-per-demo to make the game stand out, but when did balcony dives become this killer app-maker feature? Has the fanbase changed so much in the past few years that it went from wanting a wrestling sim to people demanding a balcony ala the Smackdown fist? Wouldn't something like a last man standing match, hardcore match, hell, even a ladder match be a bit more of a positive addition to the whole package as opposed to doing dives off a balcony?
Maybe its just me, but I'd be a little bit more excited about the demo if it was 2-3 match types (even simple ones) and a few characters instead of a few characters and a divable balcony.
While people are paying for it and singing its praises on message boards to feel good about themselves, Uprising is going to be used as a beta. Technical glitches, balance issues, control problems, and all the things that will affect how the game plays are going to be tested by people playing uprising. The game is still at a relatively early phase in its development so this is the time when the games foundation can be leveled and strengthened.
Now I do think that basic level interactivity is important, seeing as how its something that could be used by players in pretty much any game mode. Well, maybe not the balcony interaction if the game has count outs. Still, I would hope the full PWX had balcony dives, and even more inventive level interaction. However, the things that wrester's can do in the ring are things that will can be used, and used often, in any game mode. I really think that building the best possible wrestling engine inside the ring should be first priority. From there we can build outwards. Every level will have a ring, all will have a ring apron, all will have a floor, all will have a guardrail. Will they all have a balcony? A strong in ring grappling, striking, and flying attack engine will be the basis for everything else. I think that including a balcony dive this early is diverting much needed resources away from developing core game play. Assuming that people who pay for a beta will fully encompass the type of people who want to play PWX, valuable testing hours will be spent on gimmicks rather than core game play. Not only will development be steered away from perfecting in ring game play, but feedback will be diverted also. People who play the final game may fine themselves spending more time being bored and looking for spots than they do getting into a challenging match.
All in all, its one more reason I think times are changing. Oh, add the fact that fans'aren't responding to a serious question like this onto that list also.
Personally, I would be much more excited if the demo was being sold on the things wrestlers can do in the wrestling ring.
I agree. Level specific interaction is something that should be included but not this early in development. I'd much rather see more in-ring moves/interactions at this stage than a gimmick.
I have to agree as well...as diving off a balcony is one of the last things I would care about.
That said, I think they want to show off the full interactive abilities of the core game, and since the Uprising game is going to be in the Hammerlock arena they want to have everything ready for that arena.
So, spend the 10 hours on it...but keep the action between the ropes tight too....that is where the game is going to live or die.
I agree with most of you guys that tight gameplay is the most important factor. However, I wouldn't read too much into the inclusion of an interactive balcony. Uprising is more of a retail game then it is a demo for PWX. It is just a way for the crew to encourage people to pay $10 to buy the game. It is not that big of a deal. On a side note, I hope that the development zone weeds out all the " look at my mugen", "look at my no mercy hacks", "look at my e-fed", "I should be in the game", blah blah etc. There's not enough talk about the most important matter at hand at that is talking about and providing input to the crew and I hope the development zone will fix this.
[quote][cite] esteel20:[/cite]I agree with most of you guys that tight gameplay is the most important factor. However, I wouldn't read too much into the inclusion of an interactive balcony. Uprising is more of a retail game then it is a demo for PWX. It is just a way for the crew to encourage people to pay $10 to buy the game. It is not that big of a deal. On a side note, I hope that the development zone weeds out all the " look at my mugen", "look at my no mercy hacks", "look at my e-fed", "I should be in the game", blah blah etc. There's not enough talk about the most important matter at hand at that is talking about and providing input to the crew and I hope the development zone will fix this.[/quote]
I don't know, I'm pretty sure most of the input from the fans ran its course as soon as the production of the game started. There is an overwhelming amount of 'HOW FAR ON THE MUTA SCALE CAN WE GO!?' 'WILL THIS MOVE BE IN?' on this board, and I doubt paying 10 dollars is going to change a thing. Lots of people have 10 dollars.
We can't give input right now because all there is to give input on is animations and screen shots, and hell, the last time people really gave feedback on that we had a newsletter that was basically saying, "you guys are too harsh, fuck off and stop it and let us do our job."
I assume you are talking about the Go To Sleep incident and if so then I agree with you that the crew did not do that great of a job listening to their fans.
The only reason Dave has had the balls to charge for PWX Uprising is because theres the hope it helps fund the real PWX. That aside, Uprising will affect PWX.
So, as it is now, if you want to pay for Uprising, then you'll have a voice in "the development zone." Sounds like Dave was trying to make people with opposing opinions happy with that one. Anyways people like me have earned a say in this game, I'm not putting cash down so I can talk PWX. Also, I have no doubt in my mind that putting criteria and limitations on having your opinion matter will keep a lot of smart opinions away from PWX. The full game needs to sell to people who wont buy Uprising in order to be successful, so why should outside opinions not be heard? And again, cant we work on something better for the final game than balcony dives?
im sure all good ideas will be listened too bud,you might not think a balcony dive is imporant but its still something that would add enjoyment to the game for many gamers(myself included)..its not make or break,but if it can be done,why not?
what stuff would you like to put forward?..just curious
this game is for THE gamers,and whilst all gamers arnt russo fans,they sure as hell arnt all NOAH,ROH fans either,so your gonna have to put up with some stuff that you dont like,just as some gamers may find rest holds boring(not me)
[quote][cite] Spunk:[/cite] I don't know, I'm pretty sure most of the input from the fans ran its course as soon as the production of the game started. [/quote]
Well I wouldn't go that far but I would admit that we had to put our heads down and get the basics working before we could really do much with the bulk of the suggestions and feedback we get. Most people ask for things that assume there is a solid basic wrestling game underneath it and we had to build that first.
[quote][cite] Spunk:[/cite] We can't give input right now because all there is to give input on is animations and screen shots, and hell, the last time people really gave feedback on that we had a newsletter that was basically saying, "you guys are too harsh, fuck off and stop it and let us do our job."[/quote]
And getting Uprising into people's hands will address that. The free version will have all the core gameplay available for people to test drive and give feedback on. As for the crew response to the 'Go to Sleep incident' I have to be honest, some people gave feedback that was not constructive, helpful, or even civil and the crew read it. The crew is made up of real people and nobody likes to be ridiculed or berated. Criticize the animations, please, because we want to improve as best we can. But the crew stumbled across some comments that were just plain dickish, personal attacks, and uncalled for. Nobody needs that. I thought everyone would appreciate hearing what the crew was thinking. Why not?
I don't want to speak too much on the crew's behalf in that regard except to say much of their frustration over animation feedback is that they simply don't have the amount of time they need to do everything to perfection unless the movelist is going to be chopped by 90%. Obviously though we are sincere about wanting to improve the level of fan interaction during development and we know that once Uprising gets out there we will have no shortage of concrete feedback based on actual hands-on opinions that we haven't had up until this point and I for one am thrilled to finally be getting to that stage.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite]The only reason Dave has had the balls to charge for PWX Uprising is because theres the hope it helps fund the real PWX. [/quote]
You think so? I wasn't really expecting much in the way of pre orders given that the free version has all the core gameplay as the paid version. People have been asking about supporting us with $$$ donations and I just figured we could offer a bit more content and make a paid version available for those who wanted to help out in that way. You don't have to pay a dime for Uprising unless you're either dying to send Cesey flying off the balcony or just want to donate a few $$$ to the cause.
[quote][cite] PunkDraco:[/cite] So, as it is now, if you want to pay for Uprising, then you'll have a voice in "the development zone." Sounds like Dave was trying to make people with opposing opinions happy with that one. Anyways people like me have earned a say in this game, I'm not putting cash down so I can talk PWX. Also, I have no doubt in my mind that putting criteria and limitations on having your opinion matter will keep a lot of smart opinions away from PWX. The full game needs to sell to people who wont buy Uprising in order to be successful, so why should outside opinions not be heard? And again, cant we work on something better for the final game than balcony dives?[/quote]
Man what is it with you? If it's not powerballs it's balcony dives ;-)
Seriously though, people who choose to support PWX with $$$ deserve to be rewarded with something and the developer zone seemed like a good idea. I guarantee you we won't be ignoring the public boards (anymore than I already do...doh) and absolutely we will consider every opinion. Trust me, if everyone in the developer zone votes for a bra and panties match I fully intend to exercise some veto power!
"You don't have to pay a dime for Uprising unless you're either dying to send Cesey flying off the balcony or just want to donate a few $$$ to the cause."
I paid for it because I really believe in this cause for the last 5 years & I know you will deliver.
[quote]Criticize the animations, please, because we want to improve as best we can. But the crew stumbled across some comments that were just plain dickish, personal attacks, and uncalled for. Nobody needs that. I thought everyone would appreciate hearing what the crew was thinking. Why not?[/quote]
Well, thats the internet for you. That was kind of a turning point for me, sadly, when it comes to the project. It just felt like a slap in the face to all of the people who were sincere in their criticisms and just were doing so in hopes to improve things, not to call somebody a fag or whatnot. I mean, it seems like there is a very small amount of people who are just that inept at dealing with people compared to the droves of supporters who just want to help, not undermine the project.
Honestly, after all the things the WGU and its supporters have said about other wrestling games, their developers and their publishers, I never, ever thought the WGU had a right to be overly sensitive. I'm sorry but I will always expect the people profiting off this game to grin and bear it before I expect the people donating their time to bite their tounges. Ever since then it seems like theres been more of an effort to make decisions based off of question of the week responses than there has been open discussion.
As for responses to me Dave, you know how I feel about your current financial model. Our disagreement with the balcony dive and many other issues stems from that. I think the point I was trying to make is that if your current way of funding allows you to make balcony dives but it doesn't allow you to focus on fun in ring game mechanics, maybe you need to find a different way of funding. If you pay attention to anything I say, please let this be it.
If you want to talk about what people deserve though, no problem. People who preordered or who have spent countless hours over the years doing what they could to contribute deserve just as much as someone who takes 10 or 15 bucks from their paycheck and puts it in your pocket. They deserve to test the game and be involved. They deserve to jump off a balcony even if its just so they can say "why the hell am I doing that before I can do chain wrestling?." We both know Uprising isn't going to be a Mariana trench of game play depth, how much testing will someone someone do playing the free demo and all of two wrestlers?
Your fans deserved more discussion in terms of engine licensing. They deserved more discussion in art direction, and I do think that was the problem. How can you expect anyone to be happy with your art when your limited resources are trying to pull off a photo realistic style that competitors use millions to pull off? Oh well, its too late now, but it wasn't when there was a back lash against the fans, myself included, for not praising the look of the game. The crew is doing a damn good job, but the level of detail the art style requires takes up a lot of resources I'm sure. Damn it didn't I say its too late now? Really though, the games looking good. Of course thats not whats important.
I really think that recent decisions regarding publisher relations, self publishing, charging for Uprising and pricing it where made less by reaching a resolution through public discussion and more by catering to whatever side sent you more emails. Hell even WWE and THQ listen to large majority of fans. I just think there needs to be more actual discussion. Maybe the management views you know I have apply hear, either by delegating fan relations or other things so someone or someones spend more time having back and forth talks with people to find the best way forward not just the popular way. In the end fans believe in you and like you so much that most will support what ever way your thinking. That could be bad if thats not either limited or put into perspective.
PWX needs to have clear priorities and you need to come out and state them. We may not all agree on everything but this game needs to be made by and made for people with a similar set of priorities, other wise whats the point?
I admit, if people didn't know me and my brutally honest ways, they wouldn't see this as my own little way of showing Dave love. If this type of depth and honesty could solve the POWERBALL dehate, maybe the current issues will get worked out. Dave you are responding to negative critiques more, and thats good.Really good. I cant wait t get a reply from my last passionately grumpy emails. I think the big thing I hope people realize is that I don't think you and the crew are trying to fuck anyone or doing a bad job or not trying. I just think that your doing a great job in the wrong way sometimes.
sounds elitism to me kinda,you wanna be looked upon as more imporant than current posters perhaps? maybe you want more input into the game than others? or perhaps you just want a game YOU want rather than a game to suit as many people as possible?
[quote][cite] showusnomercyagain:[/cite]sounds elitism to me kinda,you wanna be looked upon as more imporant than current posters perhaps? maybe you want more input into the game than others? or perhaps you just want a game YOU want rather than a game to suit as many people as possible?
im not having a go..just wondering.[/quote]
I agree, you can't just say there is one perfect wrestling game, everyone wants something different.
How is thinking that everybody who wants to play this early version of PWX should get to do so for free elitist? How is thinking that people who have paid for Uprising should have that money go towards a full preorder elitist? Sorry I don't think I made those two points completely clear. How is thinking that all the fans in general have not had a say as much as they should elitist? How is thinking that PWX should keep focused on its original mission of being game play first gimmick second elitist? How is thinking that working on in ring game play before gimmicks going to exclude anyone? Gimmick matches will be made better by that game play. How is wanting Dave to come out now and make a clear statement of his mission and priorities elitist? How is thinking that having real discussion should guide development elitist? For the record, everyone will want something different, thats why I want more heated discussions. I do think that PWX needs to focus on the gamers the other wrestling games don't focus on. I do think its needs to have a clear idea of what type of game it will be and focus on being the best game of that type. If it does that it could be a great game and great games can be fun for everybody.
Whats more elitist, sharing an unpopular opinion and backing it up as best you can or just stating a popular opinion en mass? Go ahead, think I'm elitist. In the end I'm just doing whatever I can to get Dave and you guys all thinking about things now while I think it might make some difference. I'm not even sure if I want to keep trying so my heart definitely not set on getting the game I want.
Hey Dave, do you remember the time at least a year ago when I got really really pissed about how new people were treated on the boards by crew and fans? How non wrestling gamers were not welcomed at all? Could you back me up on the elitist thing? I really don't blame everyone for thinking that, I'm being very vocal and inflammatory because I'm pretty outnumbered and I'm doing my best to represent a lost group of supporters the best I can. Still, even if I am just a prick I would appreciate it if people would say how they disagree with me and why, rather than question my intentions.
I just that catering to the majority is more elitist and will exclude more people in the long run. I think that whether I agree with the majority or not. Typically the majority is just a representation of the most vocal group of people, its not always the largest. If 80 percent of you get your way on one issue, you could alienate 20 percent. Do that twenty times over and where did your fan base go? Ive seen more people pass by the wayside and stop having anything to do with this game than I have seen people on this board. That doesn't mean that they don't care and wont get PWX if it is good, but it does mean that a consensus gathered off message board post and emails will never clearly represent everyone. Even if it did all opinions should be welcomed and given serious consideration. Compromises should be made that keep as many people happy as possible, and decisions should be based on whats most logical. If you just go by majority all you are doing is what other game company's do. I think what is important though is that we need a clear constantly reiterated mission of what PWX will be. I think that its most basic goals and aspirations need to be specific and clearly defined. That way, anyone and everyone who is interested in a game that fits the definition can discuss how to best make that game. If you just say "oh lets make a wrestling game and make it good" you will jump all over the place, and do a lot of things, but you wont end up doing anyone of them great. You'll be playing a mutant collage of parts that work individually but don't mesh as a whole.
If you focus on one thing, you can do that thing better than anyone else ever has. Thats the whole point. No matter what this is going to be one hell of a struggle, so all the efforts need to be focused on beating the competition in one area. Think Coup de Jarnac. I probably messed his name up but he was a French guy who had no training who had to fight one of the best duelist of his era. He just learned one move, and learned it well. He ran around the guy till he could use his move, which was a slash to the Achilles tendon, then he ran around some more till the other guy bled to death.
I guess I just think we will go farthest if we go in a straight line.
thats fair enough mate and like i said i wasnt having a go,but i dont udnerstand why a balcony dive is upsetting you so much. its either because you want a ring related puroescu game,or because you feel it wont work well..im sure dave will get the move working so i think its really because the game is no longer what you thought it would be,but there are alot of gamers out there who will love jumping of that balcony..and why not?
this game should try to hit as many bases as it can,and do it well,and i beleive that they can do good in ring and crazy gimmicks together..time will tell of course when the demo is released next friday(lol just wanted to scare dave there!)
Honestly...I don't care about fancy gimmick matches or diving off the balcony (although I don't mind...could be cool). All I care about is what happens in THAT ring. I want my wrestling. With that said I am really really looking forward to this game!!!
Yeah, calling Punk an elitist is pretty ironic if you were familiar with his history and previous debates. The guy is the farthest thing from an elitist I think I've ever seen.
Punk, I think you're wrong and here's why:
Every decision we've made has been in the best interest of the game and I would like to think that we have proven over the years we can be trusted to make those decisions. I when I say interest of 'the game' that includes the business of running a studio that can make the game. I completely understand that seeing a balcony dive could cause worry in some people's eyes that perhaps we are getting away from our commitment to focus on in-ring action. But we have to balance our desire for core gameplay with the reality and the fact that we need to have our game appeal to a much larger group of people than currently follow the project (that we know of). Did we make the decision to do a balcony move without consulting our supporters first? Yes we did. I assumed most people would understand our reasons for doing it:
1) We already had to solve flying move mechanics for turnbuckle moves anyway 2) We needed visually cool images to promote PWX 3) Balcony moonsault was quick and easy to do once flying moves were working properly 4) It's damn fun to do!
For the game we want to get made we need to stay in business and we need to consider how best to promote our game and what makes it stand apart from big budget WWE games. Yes, the line needs to be drawn somewhere and I think we've done a darn fine job drawing the line where it best suits the future of PWX.
Correct me if I'm wrong (please...spank me), but are our two biggest mistakes so far that we integrated high spots and then let it be known that maybe a few of the crew didn't appreciate personal attacks on the 'innernet?
Like Spunk said, we all want the same thing. And I promise we'll do more to actively include everyone in big decisions when appropriate. But sometimes ( a lot of the time ) there are decisions that we need to be trusted to make privately for the good of PWX.