Whats everyones beef with EA. they have good games, sure sometimes they put out a stinker. but so do the other companys. crysis is going to be a EA game and it looks great. also valve put out the orange box with EA and thats a box of greatness right there.
Sell out as long as you keep control over the game! Make money and release a damn great game otherwise do it anyway you all deserve the cash for working so long!
[quote][cite] owenneil:[/cite]Whats everyones beef with EA. they have good games, sure sometimes they put out a stinker. but so do the other companys. crysis is going to be a EA game and it looks great. also valve put out the orange box with EA and thats a box of greatness right there.[/quote]
EA swallows up good developers and spits out soul-less flesh bags. They're the worst sort of publisher.
Bioware was an amazing company, and while they may have some free reign even in EA because of their reputation, it's still depressing news. The entire game industry would be far better off if EA didn't exist. We might have fewer titles, but the quality overall would go up because the emphasis would be on development and innovation again.
Let me put it this way. If Electronic Arts were in charge of the world, this project (PWX) would never exist.
EA does t3h impossible to lure developers,fuck them up and still be the good guys to some people... They are t3h best heels in the scene,ever,kudos to them... Actually what the problem is with big publishers like EA is that they never EVER use the full potential of developers like Bioware - simply because they want this done that way or this done this way.ECW fell because "The network wanted things a certain way" - and sadly the true ECW died... So will happen with any other developer who enters their money machine...They maybe t3h sh!zzle,they may be the best,but EA will make sure you don't prove yourself.They are too busy promoting already established games like the FIFA,NFL,PGA,NBA and Madden franchises to the pubilc.Other games like The Sims,Fight Night,maybe even The Orange Box (promoted by EA,I think) also,but other good games will never see the light...
Look at it this way, at least it's not THQ,at least we'll know the games are bad and not mediocre. .... sorry that was a cheap shot,I couldn't resist an easy blow XD....
I remember when EA made great games, back when I had a C64. I still think they should bring back "Mail Order Monsters." It would make a great online fighting game.
I don't understand why people are so not understanding with this stuff. How does having a big publisher fitting your bills and distributing your stuff, as well as handling the big, annoying stuff somehow a horrible thing?
Most studios break free after they've made a few hits and a few bucks. After the way the project is looking to move now, do you really think there would be a huge difference other than Dave being able to sleep once in a while? At this point it isn't like the crew is all free and willy nilly to fulfill all of their dreams anyway. Instead its making concessions due to lack of funds. At least the other way it would be making concessions due to time constraints, instead of time constraints, lack of money, rushing to woo people at meetings, trying to keep groups A, B, C, D and Z happy, etc.
Spunk,I like you now,can we be friends? Spudz and Spunk would make a great Tag Team btw - we should enter the game! now - man,when PWX goes EA,Dave automaticly loses control over EVERYTHING.PWX is no longer Dave's greates idea - it's another THQ clone game. That's why we don't want that.They can give us the money,the push,all of that.But at the end you push FIFA 08 - the game they milk ever since 1992 and which you can't really change for the better - every game is just soccer - you won't change it - it will always be 22 guys with nice clothes chasing a ball scoring each other... EA have different views on PWX than Dave.Dave's ideas may take two games to finnaly get to business,he might be understaffed,he may not have a lot of cash,but he has the idea we all are here to contribute to.As soon as PWX steps to EA - PWX is hollow.Fans will be lost simply because "EA doesn't need them".PWX is something that put us all together for a nice wrestling game.It's for the fans by the fans.EA don't make games for fans - they make games for money,didn't you get it?
Nobody said that PWX had to sign with EA.Plus, I hate to tell you that 99% of every game you have ever played was made for money. You have to please your fans to make money but ultimately video games are an industry and industries can't survive without money. If the PWX crew received a deal from a publisher that said that PWX could retain a substantial amount of creative control while having their bills played. I'm betting that they would take it and I damn sure wouldn't think they were selling out.
There are publishers and then there's EA....*shudder*. Contrary to popular belief, EA is not in the game industry, it's in the money industry. It doesn't care if the game is good or hell even if it's finished...they will rush it out as quickly as they can and hope some sucker will plunk down their money for it. They only care about money and nothing else.
Any publisher who buys up small development houses is immediately suspect in my book. There are honest publishers, but they tend to be the smaller guys, and they work with developers, they don't swallow them whole.
As I typed this I realized I may be completely wrong, and they might all be douchebags. After seeing Dave's story in the newsletter, that's starting to look more likely.
We've never been approached by EA but plenty of their employees support us and have donated money for pre orders as well. We thought it would be funny to actually pan handle outside their studio one day and see how much we can raise ;-)
Oh sh!t - YOU MUST tell us (or even show us) the look on EA's big shots' faces when they see their employees play PWX - Uprising :D That would be just the best ever...
spudz, ECW's fall had nothing to do with 'the network' or anything like that, it was based around the fact that Heyman was a moron who was incapable of making sound business decisions and ultimately went out of business because he kept his whole 'I DO EVERYTHING ON MY OWN -- WE ARE INDEPENDENT' shit until the bitter end. Of course he took money and talent from Vince, but never enough to give Vince an actual claim to the company. Heyman mismanaged nearly every aspect of the company, from letting guys book to handling finances on his own. To this day he still owes guys money that they'll never see.
He simply overreached his boundaries as an independent wrestling promoter, and I believe its completely possible for an independent game developer to overreach their boundaries as well and see things blow up in their face.
First of all about ECW. It was successful because of a great group of wrestlers put on great shows. ECW was succesful because it focused on the bar bones actions that other companies ignored. ECW was successful when it catered to the fans who where completely unhappy by the product offered by other companies at the time. Heyman had vision, he got involved, he played his part. Problem is he was completely out of touch with reality and he was so intent on proving himself that ECW succeeding as a result of his efforts was more important then ECW succeeding. I should point out that I judge success by giving fans a good show and wrestlers a good job, rather than getting mass amounts of attention that resulted in a short term influx of profits. That short term cash never cut it. Heyman ran that ship into the ground. Had he focused on managing the talent the financial work may have gotten done by someone dedicated and competent, and fiasco's with long term downsides such as the Raven/Dreamer cruxifiction angle may have been avoided.
Also, this board is in a world all its own. Look at any other board and see what has to be said about PWX. Granted theres not much PWX related conversation going on but other than this website where is there?
PWX has gotten far on its own. Pat on the back. It has also taken forever and made decisions it can not currently afford to reconsider. Still, the funds, buzz, and development it has completed could be used for there advantage when dealing with a publisher. Developers get fucked because they agree to stupid milestones, sign shitty contracts, and otherwise just need some cash so bad that they cant afford to properly negotiate a legally binding contract thats in there favor. If the contracts includes milestones that outline a certain creative vision as well as a fixed development time line, the developer is typically okay. Problems occur once pen is put to paper on a bad deal. We have seen that happen to PWX once with the engine mishap.
EA makes crap because of there priorities. Putting a game out in a way to maximize profits trumps quality. They will put out something just so it drops on its scheduled date. They will put out an under tested, poorly coded and balance free game because they think getting something out now is more important. Catering to the masses is more important than catering to a specific group. EA would rather put out an okay game everyone was fine with than a game that many loved and a few werent interested in. EA sells by promises and by gimmicks. EA will cater to a market that will buy games repeatedly regardless of quality, and they will continue to promise improvements.
Not doing the things that makes you hate publishers should be more important than not working with publishers. Granted I hate EA, but both developers and publishers engage in the practices that make me hate them. I think indy gaming is great, but putting out 1 good game in a companys history may be more important right now.
The other option not talked about are developer collectives, basically publishers made up of cooperating developers.
Yeah the more I learn about ECW the more it sounds like it was never a viable company. I mean none of us really know the whole truth but it sure seems like it was a vanity project for Heyman. I love ECW but I wouldn't invest any money into it because it just never seemed to crawl out of debt.
What Punk says about developer decisions is totally true from my perspective. We've been offered horrible deals in the past but would it really have been the publisher's fault if we accepted and then later learned the error of our ways? Not at all. The trick is holding out for the right deal and so far we aren't seeing it from a traditional publisher.
My thoughts on ECW - ECW would have never succeeded simply because ECW is ECW.It was voilent,it was controversial,it was NSFW!And plus the fact that no matter how much you have visions and all of that,you don't magicaly turn into a businessman.Each and every man on the ECW roster said that "He was a good man and a terrible businessman." He was a simple man - he wasn't into finances,he wasn't into any of that.He is just as good in money as most of us. And on EA - look at it simply like this - EA had a long time ago the idea to make a good sports game.They do,they see it makes them a lot of money and they just do their job,each and every year they repeat the same winning scheme and gain a big-ass capital.They make new winning franchises and reapeat them until they suck them all up. Because while Konami make the game Pro Evolution Soccer with passion for the sport and to make a nice game for the fans to play and have fun with,EA make FIFA 2008 because they know they will generate a lot of money and because they do this each and every year. Like the difference between THQ and Dave's crew - the difference between PWX and WWE. PWX is a fan's project.The game has no other intentions but to make a nice fan's game and each and every penny they generate go straight to covering game expeneses.They start with nothing but a huge loan and (hopefully) finish with two games,a hell of a lot of fans and finnaly a happy wrestling community! While THQ make WWE because they are sure that the WWE will be bought by a lot of people. And the other thing is the whole quality of the game - that differences true developers from capitalist bitches. Look at 3D Realms - they are probably famous for their game Duke Nukem Forever - which has been developed from 1997 till this day,has switched 3 engines and maybe 2 crew changes.But they are milking the game for so long just because they don't want to make a crap game.PWX takes time just because they want to make it perfect. THQ go for release dates - they don't give a f*ck as long as man N1 pins N2 without 3-5 glitches per match.As long as the game is half-ready one week before they need to release it,they are fine.That's why they are evil sons of f*ckin' bitches...
WWF hired Vince Russo, a huge ECW fan and he brought in lots of 'ECW ideas' to WWF to help shape the attitude era. That on top of Mid-Southish booking and ECW's formula of Mid-South booking with Northeast Indy Standards helped make WWF look new and fresh.
So ECW being too 'extreme' is bullshit. That was just Heyman's hype and BS that people bought into. He was a master of that, just like Gabe is right now with ROH. When Gabe pushes somebody as the BEST IN THE WORLD every ROH fan on the internet will preach on about it.
VINCE RUSSO was not a ecw fan at all,hed seen a few shows but hardly a big fan,thats a common mistake...russo was the genius who created the attitude era,not heyman or VKM
attitude was so much better than ECW could ever hope to be...
How much time did you spend watching ECW while really giving it chance? How much WWE did you watch during that time? Do you think that possibly your opinion was a product of the WWEs' better marketing and exposure? I respect your opinion, but I really believe that the WWE won out over WCW amd ECW because they made so many successful decisions regarding talent relations, marketing, investment, and broadcasting that they where more than able to make up the difference caused from them lagging behind creatively.
Umm WWE straight up took the attitude concept from ECW
Steve Austin, Brian Pillman, Mick Foley, all these guys were doing their future roles in ECW. They were incredible. Pillman singlehandedly ushered in the Attitude era and it began in WCW as the loose cannon but really made headway in ECW.
[quote][cite] showusnomercyagain:[/cite]VINCE RUSSO was not a ecw fan at all,hed seen a few shows but hardly a big fan,thats a common mistake...russo was the genius who created the attitude era,not heyman or VKM
attitude was so much better than ECW could ever hope to be...[/quote]
This doesn't even make sense. Russo was a nutty retard who had a few good ideas and a lot of really bad ideas. There was a committee in place who would veto most of his ideas, but would take the ideas he presented and make them more managable. I think its really easy to say that Heyman helped influence a lot of people, but that Heyman's basic ideas and booking philosophies were shared ones by guys like Jim Ross and lots of others who were booking WWF at the time. Russo just helped bring in the cursing and woman beating into the mix, as well as hardcore stuff to add onto the basic booking philosophy.
you speak rubbish,if russos so bad why is wwe so bad since he left? 2000 lived off the rock(russpsc reation) but RAW was still really bad in 2000 compared to 99...the creatviity had gone....to WCW...99-00 was far better
ill take 100 ideas with 3 quality ones over no ideas at all(cornette,macmahon) everytime
Assuming that you where implying that I watch RAW, your assumption was wrong.
For the record, your last argument did nothing to counter Spunks point that Russo's successful ideas were inspired by other companies. Of course theres nothing wrong with that, but I can not think of one thing Russo did that was successful and original. I also can not think of a time when he improved on an idea. WW E's successes under Russo were predictable and repetitive re hashes of ideas that others had executed better, albeit with less exposure and much smaller production values. Its important to note that Russo had hours more TV time a week to develop stories than did many of his contemporaries. I would also like to bring up that Russo was more or less able to pick and choose talent thanks to the WWEs' gigantic payroll budget. The gigantic roster of well paid people surely helped him out.
I do agree with your point about taking many bad ideas from someone as long as they produce some good ideas. Of course I really do not see Russo deserving the lions share of the credit for that. Other people had to be there in order to prevent bad ideas from being used and to green light good ideas. They also surely contributed ideas themselves. The secret to the WW Es successes is that they come from a team environment with very good oversight. Of course, I think the reason the WWE is 99 percent of the time stupid as fuck is the fact that in the end, its the Vinnie Mac show and what him and his friends want goes. They of course could fuck up all they want, seeing as how they could copy bookers, hire away talent, market to hell and back, and of course do anything else all there money and lawyers could buy. The WWE was just a piece of shit that rolled in enough money downhill that it gained momentum.
you speak rubbish,if russos so bad why is wwe so bad since he left? 2000 lived off the rock(russpsc reation) but RAW was still really bad in 2000 compared to 99...the creatviity had gone....to WCW...99-00 was far better
ill take 100 ideas with 3 quality ones over no ideas at all(cornette,macmahon) everytime
your sorta guy who still enjoys raw..lmao[/quote]
Cornette never had good ideas? I must have just completely imaged SMW ever happening. WWE, like wrestling as a whole was hurting in that period, and you are talking about WCW's darkest, shittiest days like they were golden.. I don't know. WWE is hella entertaining right now, right up there with AAA and BJW as the only wrestling worth watching right now, but thats neither here nor there.
Russos 'keep tossing shit until it sticks and people like it' philosophy is so horrible because it proves he was a hack. Anybody can just toss out ideas until something sticks, that doesn't make you a genius, it makes you (especially considering his ideas) a moron. Look at TNA from beginning to end, its been awful the whole way through, and even worse when he was involved. You can tell when he is back because the match ideas start making less and less sense, the angles get SHOOTY~! and cursing and women beating become viable ways for a face to show that they are a face, as well as no angle ever has time to breath.
I think to tie this into the PWX discussion at hand; a focused, tried and true and straightforward method can sometimes yield the best results. You are never going to please people who for instance, think Vince Russo is a genius or who look to just have and like things that are not popular because, well, other people aren't into it, so it can be their own.
If you think good wrestling with a focus on in ring action is boring, thats fine. Whether you have different taste than me or if you have never given that type of wrestling a chance, you have every right to like the gimmicks, trashiness, soap opera five minute matches Jim Ross Oh Mah God finisher ref bump catapult outside interference wrestling.
I have good news for you. Every year at least one game with a multi million dollar budget comes out catering to wrestling fans just like you. Thats in addition to the WWE product and the not really ECW product, as well as the far too many TNA shows, that cater to you. If they haven't made you happy recently, or if Vince Russo was the only person who was able to do so, hopefully PWX will be able to do so.
However, PWX was not intended to be developed for the Vince Russo fan base. PWX was created for fans the wrestling and game industry have been ignoring. It was made from a combination of wrestling fans who collectively supported just about every kind of wrestling at one time or another. These people united under an appreciation of what you call boring. They all loved good wrestling. They all focused on what Vince Russo never did, the action in the ring. They all wanted a game that would allow them to show this love, by having deep game play, incredible customization, and enough balance to allow for them to play out all the kinds of wrestling that the WWE refuses to broadcast let alone build a game around.
I'm sorry, but this game was not supposed to be for behind the scene smart marks any more than it was for the typical WWE fans. This game was for the people who missed the old ECW, the old WCW, the few good matches WWE accidentally puts on when Vince is paying too much attention to his bicep to have a hand in the matches. This was for the indy fans, the puro fans, the lucha fans. The whole plan was to build a game that would allow for deep simulation style game play rather than arcade hijinks. The plan was to make a balanced game that had so much depth that even if it wouldnt attract people like you with its lack of gimmicks, it would play so damn good that non wrestling fans and even wrestling fans such as yourself would appreciate how fun it was, and maybe even appreciate plain boring wrestling.
If that doesn't bring in the donations as much, or if that doesn't sell people on a 10 to 15 dollar game, well then something should change. It shouldn't be the basic foundation of the game. I hope that people like you will be pleasantly surprised by how fun basic wrestling can be, I think your very moniker suggest you will. What do you think made everything, big gimmick matches included, so very fun about No Mercy?
PWX was supposed to be fun for everyone because it was so fun for its original fan base, it was not supposed to be fun at their exclusion. Other than the fact that publishers have money and organization, how is compromising your reason to exist for the support of a big fan base any worse than compromising to gain the support of a big company. At least with a big company you can negotiate a contract. People like to throw around the for fans by fans cliche around. Speaking for the original fans, if the focus of this game becomes running ganso bombs and gimmick matches, and if development reflects this forum, then I have to say for fans by fans will be nothing but marketing bull shit.
I'm not saying anyones opinion should not be heard, but I think for PWX to be successful it needs to have a firm creative foundation. I think now is the time for that foundation to be strengthened and exposed.
I may be completely missing the point here (wouldn't be the first time), but I feel the worry from the original PWX support base stems in part from our excitement over that damn balcony dive. I would hope that our reasons for pursuing it for a few hours and making a point of showing it have been transparently put forth. It's been said by a few of the OG guys that nobody wants to see the studio suffer too hard for our cause and even the most die-hard sim gamer will concede that PWX needs to reach the widest possible audience or it will fail regardless of gameplay. The crew made a collective decision to include balcony dives for that very reason. In hindsight maybe we should have been more active in including the supporters in our decision. We knew we weren't going top No Mercy or KoC two in terms of gameplay depth in our first release. We also knew that in order to market PWX as effectively as possible we needed that one dramatic image to catch the attention of new PWX supporters. We assessed the risk associated with various features and it was determined that balcony dives were the cheapest, fastest, and least detrimental to the ongoing development of in-ring action. We basically took what we already needed to develop for top turnbuckle moves and applied it to balcony dives. We had to develop that flying system anyway, why not allow for a few moves from the balcony that could make for exciting promo pics and not take too much away from regular gameplay development?
PWX was and still is intended first and foremost for fans of the WWE alternatives be it Japanese wrestling, Lucha, deathmatches, indy, etc. But we have to start somewhere in differentiating PWX and we just don't have the resources to do that via six-sided rings and lucha tag rules matches. We'll start with The Hammerlock and a few balcony spots on TOP of what we hope will be solid gameplay.
The plan always was and always will be more depth, more depth, more depth. And it would be grossly irresponsible of us to not try and present it in a way that would get as much attention as possible. Hence a balcony moonsault.
That being said, clearly I dropped the ball by not having this conversation with all of you much much sooner.
i was never relating my outburst to pwx im afraid,lol...i just cant bite my toungue as smarks give credit to heyman over russo when it comes to the attitud era...i cant take any russo bashing,its annoying considering his storylines are far more engrossing than the kids stuff used in the old terrortries
as for pwx,i love a good wreslting match(just not needed on a weekly show,save it for the ppvs) so i dont want pwx to change the fact its gonna be a wwe alternative...
when it comes to wrestling games storlyines dont really mean much...its the gameplay that counts,besides rvs does not cater to me..why? because wwe isnt Sports entertainment its SE done badly and the RVS games are horrendus,thats like saying no mercy shouldnt cater to NOAH fans
TNA is the only good show on at the moment,thanks to vince russo
I just think that if a balcony dive is going to justify the price or be what gets attention, than I think that supports everything else I have said about your pricing of uprising. By itself its not that big of a deal, its just another thing I see that supports my other points. Oh well, it will at least look cool lol ;-)