Welcome to Wrestling Gamers United Newsletter #290
1) Grab your ankles 2) We're moving 3) Fire Pro Returns Repackaged 4) Link of the Week 5) Question of the Week
1) Grab your ankles ************************************
Alrighty then. No guts no glory, right? We're going to do it. We're going to self publish a prelude to PWX in the form of a downloadable game. I'm relieved by the decision actually. It will buy us some continued independence, give our supporters some much deserved proof that we are working hard towards PWX, and as long as we remain committed to a high standard of quality we'll be ok. Reminds me of a quote I have on the studio wall, "If you make something people want, you'll be fine." People want us to make PWX.
Feedback wasn't completely in favor of the idea though. Close to an even split actually. But part of the concern was that we might give up on the grand vision of PWX and opt instead to just release a crappy little $20 game in it's place.
That ain't so.
What we release may be conservative in scope but we certainly won't let it ship if its glitchy or otherwise crappy. And it certainly isn't going to be presented as a replacement for PWX. It will be a snapshot of where we are in development polished up to stand as a game on it's own. It will actually be at the perfect stage to release to the PWX community because with all the basic game mechanics in place we can build it out using the feedback from everyone who plays it. We're at a stage in development where we can still make changes to the grapple system and other things so why not get all the help we can from the community?
And for all of you who suggested we take a publisher deal for a licensed game instead that might be an even stronger possibility now. I've only talked to a few publishers this week and informed them of our plans and it had the affect of making them more interested in working with us!? Maybe it's coming off like we're playing hard to get or something and therefore making us more attractive. I thought they'd say, "Ok then good luck suckers, see ya!" but instead they both said they still wanted to do another project with us. A self published game at this stage looks like it could give us even more leverage with publishers looking for a licensed wrestling game. Eeeeenteresting.
So how to proceed? Well, we've decided the first PWX prelude release will indeed contain just the Hammerlock venue and a handful of characters with no gimmick matches. I'm excited about it! Focusing our energy on an easily attainable short term goal is like getting RedBull shot straight into our veins. We can do this and it can benefit us in the long run towards the ultimate goal of an independently developed PWX. We can still negotiate with publishers and what not without self publishing a game like this first but it looks like we'll attract better deals if we do self publish. Instead of a rough playable we'll have a complete game that PWX supporters have actually purchased. That will be a HUGE plus in our favor. Unless of course we only sell ten copies, in which case it's back to the unemployment line for us.
The crew is nervous. It's a big risk we're taking here and we have no way of knowing just how much support we'll get with this from the community. I got some wonderfully encouraging email from supporters over the last week (and I spent half a day responding to them all, thank you!) but we'll need to sell at least 100 copies of this first game for every person that emailed me. I also received a good dose of email from PWX supporters who thought an early release was a bad idea. The only way to know for sure if this will work or not is to just do it. Will a small game harm the long term brand value of PWX? It might with some people, but I don't think it will harm it any worse than releasing nothing. Time will soon tell.
The crew, while nervous about just how tight the gameplay will be, are very much behind the idea of self publishing and staying independent no matter what it takes. If I may quote Tim, "Working for this company has been the best experience I could have asked for. We all know that we are always a wave away from being capsized and yet we still manage to stay a float. It’s not just luck at all boys and girl. We are all part of the bomb, but without the proper wiring, there’s no chance for us to explode. I think we owe it to Dave and his wife to give it our best effort over the next month."
So it's going to be an interesting month. We have to prove we can complete a wrestling game and at the same time prove there are people who want what we've been able to do.
Now the question remains. How do we package it? A free demo with the option to donate a few bucks to the cause and get more characters or venues? Maybe just a flat rate of $10? $5? Give it away free and ask for $.99 to unlock the balcony?
I don't know. But I will know in the next few days. If you'd like to join the discussion and help us decide on a strategy hop on over to the PWX forum and let us know what you think!
2) We're moving **********************
We're moving our website and email server over the next week so service might get a little bumpy. It shouldn't be down for long though. Thanks for your patience!
3) Fire Pro Returns Repackaged ***************************************
Now, I understand that Fire Pro Returns will be marketed as a budget title when it's released in North America later this year but I was a little surprised to see the new box art the publisher has done for it:
Now is it just me or is that pretty...blah. I want them to sell as many copies as possible and I think the cover will hurt them. It looks like an intentionally close depiction of HHH and Rey that I suppose is meant to grab the casual gamer's eye. But doesn't it ultimately come off as cheap imitation? It will be hard enough to sell today's gamers on a 2D game but the misleading cover I would think would make most people perceive it as an attempt to sucker them into buying a very low budget game. Reminds me of those generic wrestling toys you see in dollar stores.
Another curious thing I saw was a recently released trailer that showed Tiger Mask doing a fork attack and Bruiser Brody doing a poison mist. WTF are they trying to do? I hope to hell they haven't tampered with the default move sets.
3) Link of the Week ********************
And coming soon, The Hulk Hogan Hair Salon...
http://www.ricflairfinance.com/
4) Question of the Week ************************
What's in a name? A lot if the future of PWX depends the sales of our first game. It should be short, easy to remember, have 'wrestling' in the title, and have at least a loose reference to the PWX universe. Our two leading candidates are Hammerlock Wrestling and Pro Wrestling X: Uprising. What do you think? Give me a shout or post on the PWX forums and have your say!
Please email your answers to Dave@WrestlingGamersUnited.com and thanks for the support!
In the meantime and in-between time, that's it. Another edition of Wrestling Gamers United.
Hammerlock Wrestling has a nice ring to it & is easy to remember but Pro Wrestling X: Uprising sounds cooler. Just like how VHS beat out the better format BETA, I would go with Hammerlock Wrestling...I have a hunch it would do better if you choose this title out of 2.
Whatever you decide to offer as prequel to the official PWX game I will purchase it...no matter what it is as long as i can test out the game mechanics. Also will this thing offer some sort of CAW?
[quote][cite] RoadWarriorAce:[/cite]Hammerlock Wrestling has a nice ring to it & is easy to remember but Pro Wrestling X: Uprising sounds cooler. Just like how VHS beat out the better format BETA, I would go with Hammerlock Wrestling...I have a hunch it would do better if you choose this title out of 2.
Whatever you decide to offer as prequel to the official PWX game I will purchase it...no matter what it is as long as i can test out the game mechanics. Also will this thing offer some sort of CAW?
I dunno Hamerlock Wrestling may sound cool to everyone that knows what PWX is but if someone accidently bumps up on the game it would sound kinda old it sounds like the old 2d games I like the second one better.
[quote][cite] valdik:[/cite]I dunno Hamerlock Wrestling may sound cool to everyone that knows what PWX is but if someone accidently bumps up on the game it would sound kinda old it sounds like the old 2d games I like the second one better.[/quote]
Well now that you put it that way you kinda make sense. It does sound like a 2d game from way back.
Yo I don't get something from the letter we buy what the team release now and then do we pay for the full version of PWX or what. Cuz what I understood we get the release with basic CAW and matches and then after the team are finished we get PWX for free? Am I wrong or...?
I think charging anything more than five bucks is a huge mistake. Word of mouth got you guys where you are, but I think it can put you out of business too. People who don't like it but only paid five bucks for it wont be all over the internet ruining your brand name like people who wasted twenty bucks will. Also, curios people will be a lot more willing to try your game if its only five bucks, so you could actually get a lot more people interested. Also, don't have PWX in the name. Advertise PWX in it so that people who like it will look for PWX to come out, but if PWX is in the name you wont be able to avoid any bad reviews of the small game directly hurting the reputation of the big game.
At the end of the day if reviews are good and you raise the price some folks feel like they got a deal. if you charge a lot, get bad reviews, and end up dropping the price. the people who paid more and gave bad reviews will feel screwed and make it a point to smear the game.
In the end, unless theres a real roster for it and serious game play testing as well as technical testing, your pretty much charging long time supporters for a beta. go with the demo if you can. If you need to increase your cash flow, please keep the price low.
It is a little scary to consider this mini release. It means we'll get to play it sooner. I, for one, have been waiting for this for so long and although i've been skeptical i've also been confident. Now I'm thinking "I get to play it soon....it might be a massive let down."
You'd have to make it Hammerlock Wrestling Academy, otherwise people might accidently mistake for a Virtual Console release of the SNES game "Hammerlock Wrestling". Assuming you go with Hammerlock over a name with "PWX" in it.
okay i have posted in the last newsletter but nobody will read that so this is my thought on the situation I am just gonna tell it like it is, I am a big fan of wrestling games on all formats, I am what your company would call the target audience of demigrpahic so im not gonna sugar coat anything, remember its my opinion, but thats wot is important, cos I am the target audience :)
-Without a CAW sorry but I wont be buying the game till it includes one simple as -The one venue is good so I dont care about others yet. -You need to put a Demo out or I wont ever be tempted by this game. -Personally I feel the first version idea is risky, could make the game look crap and then no sales will happen then no expansions -At least a video of the game please, something anything, however short, and please show collision in the video -How long will it take to get to the "finished" version of PWX? hasnt the project been going 10 years or something daft like that :) -Again ill say it needs a CAW -Something needs to be shown otherwise a siny object will take my attention of you guys very soon -I am starting to doubt that this game will ever be made -Needs a CAW god damit -Unfortunately you guys big yourselves up way too much, I am starting to think that Chuck D was right about not believing that hype -If your company was a Wrestling Booker, you'd be Paul Heyamn, "Great ideas, if you can keep going" -CAW -Seriously what sort of time frrame are we looking at when is this game (if ever) gonna come out -CAW
sorry if this pissed you off but I had very high hopes for this game and things dont seem to be going anywhere IMO, Please remember I am trying to represent the general noob to this game and even I am gettin disheartened now
oh and remember CAW - CAW - CAW - CAW
I feel I have to be harsh so you understand that fans of this non existent game are growing tired of the waiting line and dwindling prize at the end
For starters you havent created any CAW mode yet, and as far as I am aware you need some money quick and you could release it quicker without a CAW mode.
If you include a CAW mode which is good and the game is recieved well, why would people want to buy the real game? If this 'starter' is recieved well and people enjoy playing the simple one on one matches with the short selection of wrestlers you include, they are gonna be certain to buy the real version with CAW, they might not need to if this includes it.
I couldn't disagree with richiedef more. Absolutely do not include a CAW. A demo is no place for the CAW feature. Of course the final game will include a CAW. That's a no-brainer. But a demo is where you concentrate on gameplay, graphics and animation - gameplay being the priority right now.
Now I appreciate richiedef's opinion because in any wrestling game, I want to play with the characters that I want. If a game has a great game engine but has no wrestlers I care about, then it's pointless. But it's not what you concentrat on at this stage.
Actually, I'm much more concerned with modding/texturing than CAW for this game. If anything, I'd include some ability to mod the demo. That'd be pretty sick. Then the modding community can almost get started an be ready for the real release of PWX. And people could see the potential/power/benefits of this game in that sense.
I think that if a game is a good game that is fun to play the editing facilities are more a less an excellent bonus. CAW features are great but if a wrestling game is fun enough then it's still well worth playing. If you feel that the CAWless demo is not worth the money then don't buy it. However, the way I see it it is going to hopefully be a great little game to tide us over til PWX comes out. It isn't going to cost much more than a 5 day rental of Smackdown V RAW 2007 in England so I see no problem. It'll be a fun try before you buy and you get to keep it.
There are already people on message boards, as well as post and announcements from Dave, saying that PWX will have a CAW, a story mode, a cage match etc. Its been said and people are continuing to say it. If anything is released with PWX in the name that does not have those features, it will be a PR nightmare. People will hear one thing about PWX but be capable of downloading something completely different. Not only will potential consumers get confused (angered pr apathetic) about PWX, but potential publishers will get confused about the word of mouth that PWX proper and PWX light have generated. I really think its imperative that PWX be NOWHERE in the early releases name.
If anything I am playing devils advocate for this discussion and I have stated that if a "demo" was put out then it doesnt need to include a CAW, but I personally wouldnt pay for that demo. I dont care if its the modding community that provides "real" wrestlers for the finished product or a CAW is made with it finally. I agree with the PR nightmare about release something that is nowhere near the talked about product. So dont call it PWX yet. My point mainly is that it was certain talked about features that drew my interest to this game and I wont part with my cash unless they are included these being - +CAW +Create-An-Arena +Create-A-Belt +Create-A-Move - is it still going to include this aspect - cos if not ill probably take my ball and go home since this was THEE selling point of the game to me. +Gimmick Matches - The Bardwire Rope Match is a massive selling point to me. Forget the online play for ages guys that can be added in laters. Dont think I want these features instantly but if it will take another 5 years to get anywhere near these talked about points then the game is dead to me sorry
The svr 08 demo gives you 4 wrestlers and two match types. That's it.
Anything more in a demo from an indy company would be icing on the cake. A PR nightmare? Not having PWX name is the dumbest branding idea i ever heard. THIS IS NOT THE GAME - IT'S A DEMO. The more you can get the PWX name out there without confusing it with some other name / brand / identity the better.
I agree with the you guys that there is no need for a demo to have a CAW or a lot of match types but this is a different situation than SVR or any other demo. We are more than likely going to be paying for this demo. Key phrase there being "paying for this demo." I don't know about you guys but I don't usually pay to play demos. If you actually want people to pay for this I would suggest a 1-level, 4 wrestlers, CAW, and some modability. Otherwise, I just don't see PWX having much success at getting people to pay for a demo.
Oh and if I totally misread the latest newsletter about having to pay for a demo. Please correct me.
I see it more as a prequel to PWX. It's going to be very much like PWX but without all the trimmings. Demo would suggest to me that the whole game was complete and this was some sort of teaser. Also, am I the only one here who has paid for demos in the past? Granted they were PS/PS2 and Amiga demos and they were attached to a magazine but oftentimes I felt more like the Magazine way a bonus.
[quote][cite] action937:[/cite]Why? Does the SVR 08 demo have any CAW, story mode, cage etc? No. It's a DEMO. not a full game. DEEEEMMMOOOOO[/quote]
Even if SVR 08s DEEEMMMOOOO cost 20 bucks at least its coming from an established company where at least some level of quality is to be expected. Also, that DEEEMMOOO is being released by a company that has much larger customer base, of which the majority is blindly loyal. Releasing a SVR DEEEMMMOOO isn't risky like Dave charging money for a DEEEMMMOOO is.
Also, if it is a prequel, or a a demo, or what ever the fuck it gets called if people are paying for it, the expectations will rise in accordance to the price. Free release, no expectations, twenty dollar release, higher expectations. Seeing as how even loyal followers are confused as to whether this is a demo or a game backs up my point. The great many non loyal customers you'll need to get interested in PWX wont have a fucking clue whats going on when they hear about a twenty dollar game, a demo, a prequel, a full version, an early version, a CAW, and no CAW.
I think some of the detractors are expecting quality akin to an M.Dickie release, and I think that expectation is a mistake. All the evidence I can see on this site suggests a game of much higher quality than anything we have ever seen in the wrestling genre from an independent developer. I have honestly never been so excited about an indy project. I'll be buying at least one copy, maybe two (one for me and my partner), and I'll be telling every single one of my wrestling fan friends to buy a copy as well, presuming it's as good as I suspect it will be.
I think it's clear that Dave and the team are passionate about this project. That should be kept in mind when you're trying to decide if you can trust them with your $20 investment in the future of wrestling games.
I don't mind waiting for a CAW mode. What I think would be great is if future improvements could be done as small expansions (think $10 for CAW mode, $5 for a few more wrestlers, etc), or free patches, etc. That would help avoid having folks who buy this early version from paying for essentially the same content twice.
Is there any kind of ballpark estimate for a release date?
For the love of god, they need to get rid of that awful cover! Please, somebody post the following on Agetecs forum (go to www.agetec.com and click on forum). I would do it by myself, but Ezboard is fucked up:
I've just seen it. Nothing against your work, but I, personally, think that it's just awful. What a poor soul that hasn't heard of the game before would buy THAT?! I know that you want to get as many customers as possible, but there is no way doing that by putting a bad copy of Triple H and an even worse mix of Mil Mascaras and Rey Mysterio. This game won't get Rey-Marks, if you want that. It wants to get demanding players, not 9 year old children. Those want highly detailed 3D-models and extremely easy gameplay, and that's not really that what FPR offers. Lots of people borrow a game from stores before they buy it - but who would borrow a game that looks so F'N cheap?! WHO? Please, please, please Agetec. Bring back the old, simple, but still great cover. Spike would sue you for character assassination if they could see that. What have you thought when you created THAT?! Again, please bring back the old cover. And I'll give you dozens of reasons why if you don't. If you have a heart for your fans and the fans of an old, ignored but classic series, than bring back the old cover. Even the super-crappy Fire Pro Z was better than THAT.
I've gotten seriously owned this past week or so with regard to my communication ability. I've clearly done an absolutely shitty job of explaining what it is we're setting out to release. I'll try again. And I'll add more to the confusion. If anyone can make sense out of what I'm about to write and write it back to us in a way we can all understand please do!
Here goes:
We have enough content and functionality to release a small wrestling game on our own and we should do it for all the reasons we've been discussing recently. It won't be PWX because PWX is intended to be a much bigger game with CAW, career mode, story mode, cage match, and hopefully online multiplayer. However, this little game we're going to release will be built around the PWX universe (characters, venue, etc) so that's why the name issue was raised. It will be a prelude or precursor or preview of PWX or whatever you want to call it. SOme might even call it (and here is where it gets confusing) a demo of PWX. And if I can add yet another layer of confusion on top of the whole thing please wrap your minds around this: there will be a free demo of this PWX preview. If you like the free demo (two characters only) you can decide to support further development by kicking in a few bucks and we'll unlock more content and functionality for you. You won't have to pay a penny to test drive the PWX preview but you can kick in some support cash if you like what you see and we'll give you more to play with.
So it will be a PWX demo in the sense that vs. The World was a No Mercy demo.
So it's not a demo it's a full game. A full game with no match types, CAW, or anything? I think it's a REALLY bad idea to call it a full game. It sounds like it could do serious damage to the PWX name. I'd release it as a demo.
[quote][cite] dratsab:[/cite]So it's not a demo it's a full game. A full game with no match types, CAW, or anything? I think it's a REALLY bad idea to call it a full game. It sounds like it could do serious damage to the PWX name. I'd release it as a demo.[/quote]
I think demo is actually worse, because it suggests it's demonstrating a final release, when that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Just calling it Hammerlock Wrestling or PWX: Hammerlock Wrestling would be good I think. Also the main menu should have a selection that takes you to an information screen about the full PWX, why there's a preview being released, why supporting is important, etc. Sort of like a shareware demo would have, but without the word demo ;)
Hey Dave, how about some physical copies? Possibly work out a deal with some gaming magazines using the free demo disc. And btw, can I pay with cash? I'll just drop by the studios to pick it up.
As for the title, give it something simple and cool. Have some "code" in it if you know what I mean. Like maybe PoWerDEMOlitionX. Scramble those letters to form PWXDEMO or something.But then again, maybe I'm looking into that SAVE_US.222 stuff too much.
Pro Wrestling X: The Hammerlock is a great name. It sounds kind of metaphysical (???). Like this:\
-- The Hammerlock arena/training center is the training ground/dojo type arena of PWX where you come to learn the basics of PWX.
-- The Hammerlock is a basic entry level wrestling maneuver.
-- The game is just a taste of things to come.
From that stems Pro Wrestling X: The Hammerlock!
But I'd suggest that you have at least EIGHT FULL WORKING characters included, only the Hammerlock FULLY interactive and functional (balcony climbing/dives, basic weapons -- ex.chair, kendo stick, barbed wire bat just to get people talking -- MAYBE a table -- Nothing will make a believer more than doing a balcony dive through a table in a demo) and a referee. Also fully customizable match rules for up to eight players. We want people to come away talking. If people can't put down a demo from an indy developer that plays better than a FULL Smackdown game, then you know you've got something. Hell you wouldn't even need to sort out the chain wrestling bit yet, though it would add more.
I think it's cool for folks to suggest what should be in a demo for this game, but people should keep in mind the purpose of this is to secure funding so they can keep handing out paychecks. I'm sure if they had the luxury of time, there would be a lot more included than we'll probably see.
I can understand folks being apprehensive about spending money, but if the alternative is to see the project fizzle, then I'm going to pony up. I bet everyone thinking twice wastes $20 in two weeks easy, that could instead pay for your copy ;) It's not especially expensive, and maybe you won't get $20 worth of product right now, but you'd be investing in a long term goal, which in my opinion would be worth much more than a single $20 bill. Just gotta decide on priorities.. a few meals at Burger King, or a new face in the wrestling game arena?
You know what's fucked up? I bought a chicken BBQ pizza from papa john's for $15 WTF. I mean it wasn't bad, but jesus christ. I can get a large one topping for $5 at little ceasars.
Since I moved to Chicago tho, I have given up the 5$ little caesars, in favor of the $30 gourmet chicago stuffed pizza, and I don't think I'll ever be going back. I'd rather eat less pizza and have one good one occasionally, than have crappy pizza 3 times a week ;)
Eight full working characters? Let's see what we have so far:
Dane Tirador G-Rush No Cara Cesey Unannounced character #1 Unannounced character #2
Hmmm we're shy at least one character. I've got an idea. We'll auction off the services of one crew member who will then work directly with the winner of the auction to complete a new character for PWX Uprising Hammerlock DEEEEEMMMMMMOOOOOOO
If you design the character that makes it into the game, that should be a major reward in itself. You will be etched immortaly into the game that revolutionized wrestling games!
[quote][cite] Qi:[/cite]Hey Dave, how about some physical copies? Possibly work out a deal with some gaming magazines using the free demo disc. And btw, can I pay with cash? I'll just drop by the studios to pick it up.[/quote]
We're doing digital distribution only for this first release but if by some stroke of good fortune it does really well we'd like to offer regular updates to it as we progress towards the ultimate final PWX. We might then decide to release physical copies along the way for collectors. For the digitally distributed version though we will offer a super sexy pdf you can print out for box art and instruction manual. By the way, feel free to swing by the studio again sometime (call first). We've come a long way since the last time you were here and we had just switched engines.
[quote][cite] Krow:[/cite]Are you gonna do massively generic moveset guys (Puro guy, Brit Wres guy, Texan 80s wrestler guy, Lucha guy, OVW bland piece of shit guy)?[/quote]
So far the movesets are pretty generic and tend towards the the basic old school, technical, bruiser, Lucha, etc. Depending, again, on what people want from us next we would consider offering downloadable moves and movesets after release.
Cool. I'm so looking forward to playing the game. Wish there was an old school World of Sport Wrestler like Mick McManus, Johnny Saint, Rollerball Rocco, Marty Jones, Dave Finlay in the game. One who wears a jacket to the ring and smokes a pipe and looks like a nasty old man who hits his kids and doesn't wax himself.