Here is an excerpt from an e-mail I sent the PWX team. I'd like to hear what the board thinks about this in terms of game play
"...from the very little I've read about of how your engine actually works, I did tend to disagree with the use of a grapple button. The reason I view this as drawback is because of the predictability that results from either side initiating the grapple button. When playing the THQ/AKI engine for example, whenever a wrestler initiated the grapple, the user knew who was going to perform the offensive maneuver. This leads to an eventual predictability playing the game once the players mind begins to recognize the grapple animation which indicates who would be performing the maneuver. This creates lull between the user and the gameplay as the user already views the outcome and then waits 1 to 2 seconds for the sequence to be completed. In my mind having either wrestler able to perform an offensive maneuver from the same grapple animation, regardless of who initiated it, allows for constant uncertainty(and therefore constant involvement) on the players end as the outcome remains in question until the move is performed(and similar reversal animations perpetuating that suspense throughout the move). Having either wrestler able to perform offensively from the same grapple animation, the grapple button is really inconsequential. I think the Spike collision initiated collar&elbow tie-up is a good example of a type of fluidity created when the one-way grapple is eliminated. That split second may not seem like much, but as a player's mind becomes conditioned to know what to expect from that initiated animation it becomes a world of difference in terms of continuity and replayability. "
I guess this issue really isn't having a grapple button, but the predictable pattern that results when you know which character is performing the offensive manuever as soon as the button is pressed. So it really is a question of one-way versus neutral grapples.
Building on a concept of constant uncertainty from the grapple, in my mind a perpetual involvment between the player and the gameplay is key. Along this line of thought I think controlling moves as they occur would also be a big plus.
EX: The player who better timed the neutral grapple initiates a suplex. Now as the suplex animation occurs the offensive player has options. 1. hold the button that initiated the suplex for a stalling suplex(ex: The Briitsh Bulldog), upon releasing the button is when the move is completed. 2. as the suplex is falling the offensive player can hold x button for an immediate pin 3. as the suplex is falling the offensive player can hold y button for a re-suplex( ex: Eddie Guerrero, or ex rolling germans if a back grapple)
Now a player can just press the suplex(no button hold) and have a regular suplex occur. The logical funciton for holding a suplex would be crowd reaction, and possible stamina effects to the victim(oh my the blood is rushing to his head! lol)The ability to hold the suplex in the air(and for how long) would depend on power attributes and stamina, as would the ability to re-suplex. And in holding a suplex or attempting another, the offesive player would risk a greater chance of reversal.
This could be applied to a myriad of moves like body slams, the gorrila press, powerbombs. And in doing so would do away with using up multiple move slots for similar moves.(No need to give a character and powerbomb and a powerbomb with a pin, or Fisherman suplex pin and Fisherman buster, ect.)
I kinda went off on a tangent there but what is everyone's thoughts on grapple systems in terms of one-way versus neutral or a completely different style? Also from a programming standpoint, are ther any headaches and/or nightmares that could occur in attempting an interactive move structure like I just laid out?
I like this idea but i think that when making CAWs if we want a character to have like all those suplex variations we have to put them in that slot cause not every wrestler that makes a suplex makes all those variations and if for example i set my CAW to have the stalling suplex as the "base" move he could still control it by holding the button but in that case maybe it could appear in the screen some sort of icon to acknowledge that the player is making a move that requires the button to be held down for the stalling part but imagine that i want to add a variation to the stalling suplex like pinning i would have to add the variation myself cause by default there is not one set, now i'll give another example i have a wrestler that has the jackhammer(simple no pin) as base (even though the base could be the pinning variation) i could add the pinning variation and vice versa but i can also link this move to a suplex or any kind of move that has the same set up(but this move would have to be in a slot when making the CAW and maybe have something saying that the two moves are "linked") and if in the suplex slot that is linked to the jackhammer slot you have a snap suplex then you could use the snap suplex. i think this is a pretty neat idea cause it gives you many options it might be a little confusing at first but you'll get the hang of it.
EDIT: I forgot that this gives you the option to for example do two suplexes in a row(like eddie) and the third to be a stalling suplex or whatever kind of suplex you want.
Im not sure exactly what you're saying but the structure I laid out should eliminate the need for a stalled suplex as a designated move. Of course if there are special types of suplexes such a snap suplexes, or moves that have special animations, they would be separte moves. The point of the structure is to give the player control throughout the entire animation of a move. EX: If you want to hold a suplex for a second or two, or stall for a period of time, its all the players perogotive. The mutlple suplex spot could either be determined by a "technical ability" attribute or special designation/move since it is a spot not many wrestlers do.(the immedite re-suplex option could also be an immediate pick up off the canvas button) The point is to have total control instead of watching an unalterable animation of 3 consecutive suplexes. Intiating the immediate pin option would have the suplex go through its normal animation but instead of standing up, the offesive player would immediately slide over for the pin
I always thought of having two grapple buttons, with 8 directions each for quick grapples(16 in total, and then have holding them in for another 16 plus no directions adding 4. Thats 36 total.)
If 8 directions is too many, how about... 2 buttons with 4 directions apeice, and the hold in feature for strong, and then pressing both grapples together, or holding both. Then no direction adding 6 more... Creating a total of 30, and being a bit more managable. Perhaps holding a shoulder button with a grapple button would innitiate a grapple animation letting you drag your opponent and position them?
[quote][cite] JohnnyR:[/cite]Im not sure exactly what you're saying but the structure I laid out should eliminate the need for a stalled suplex as a designated move. Of course if there are special types of suplexes such a snap suplexes, or moves that have special animations, they would be separte moves. The point of the structure is to give the player control throughout the entire animation of a move. EX: If you want to hold a suplex for a second or two, or stall for a period of time, its all the players perogotive. The mutlple suplex spot could either be determined by a "technical ability" attribute or special designation/move since it is a spot not many wrestlers do.(the immedite re-suplex option could also be an immediate pick up off the canvas button) The point is to have total control instead of watching an unalterable animation of 3 consecutive suplexes. Intiating the immediate pin option would have the suplex go through its normal animation but instead of standing up, the offesive player would immediately slide over for the pin[/quote]
Yes, i totally agree with you on that i'm just saying that not all wrestlers make stalling suplexes and some of them don't make snap suplexes i was saying that if you want you werstler to have those variations you would have to add them and i also like the hodilng the button for stalling part maybe when you're holding the button the player could walk around the ring with the opponent in the suplexing position to make him fall on a table or let's say that the move is a powerbomb while the opponent is on your shoulders you hold the "stalling button"(not all powerbombs have the stalling option) and you could move around the ring to reach for the ropes and powerbomb the guy out of the ring.
[quote][cite] JohnnyR:[/cite]Here is an excerpt from an e-mail I sent the PWX team. I'd like to hear what the board thinks about this in terms of game play
"...from the very little I've read about of how your engine actually works, I did tend to disagree with the use of a grapple button. The reason I view this as drawback is because of the predictability that results from either side initiating the grapple button. When playing the THQ/AKI engine for example, whenever a wrestler initiated the grapple, the user knew who was going to perform the offensive maneuver. This leads to an eventual predictability playing the game once the players mind begins to recognize the grapple animation which indicates who would be performing the maneuver. This creates lull between the user and the gameplay as the user already views the outcome and then waits 1 to 2 seconds for the sequence to be completed. In my mind having either wrestler able to perform an offensive maneuver from the same grapple animation, regardless of who initiated it, allows for constant uncertainty(and therefore constant involvement) on the players end as the outcome remains in question until the move is performed(and similar reversal animations perpetuating that suspense throughout the move). Having either wrestler able to perform offensively from the same grapple animation, the grapple button is really inconsequential. I think the Spike collision initiated collar&elbow tie-up is a good example of a type of fluidity created when the one-way grapple is eliminated. That split second may not seem like much, but as a player's mind becomes conditioned to know what to expect from that initiated animation it becomes a world of difference in terms of continuity and replayability. "
I guess this issue really isn't having a grapple button, but the predictable pattern that results when you know which character is performing the offensive manuever as soon as the button is pressed. So it really is a question of one-way versus neutral grapples.
Building on a concept of constant uncertainty from the grapple, in my mind a perpetual involvment between the player and the gameplay is key. Along this line of thought I think controlling moves as they occur would also be a big plus.
EX: The player who better timed the neutral grapple initiates a suplex. Now as the suplex animation occurs the offensive player has options. 1. hold the button that initiated the suplex for a stalling suplex(ex: The Briitsh Bulldog), upon releasing the button is when the move is completed. 2. as the suplex is falling the offensive player can hold x button for an immediate pin 3. as the suplex is falling the offensive player can hold y button for a re-suplex( ex: Eddie Guerrero, or ex rolling germans if a back grapple)
Now a player can just press the suplex(no button hold) and have a regular suplex occur. The logical funciton for holding a suplex would be crowd reaction, and possible stamina effects to the victim(oh my the blood is rushing to his head! lol)The ability to hold the suplex in the air(and for how long) would depend on power attributes and stamina, as would the ability to re-suplex. And in holding a suplex or attempting another, [/quote] You must not be very familiar with that grapple system. even if you initiated the grapple your opponent had a very good chance of reversing it if you were trying to do a strong move which is why they had weak and strong moves in the first place. Besides having the "natural tie up" as you say would just result in button mashing, and that would totally go against the total control you were talking about the player having. That kind of tie up without having to push a button if one of the few things i didn't like about fire Pro. You mave have started the grapple but that doesn't mean that you knew for sure that you were going to be on the offense. your opponent always had the chance to event reverse the grapple animation and then another chance to reverse the actual move. This is why i loved that grapple engine it was never just botton mashing you had to have some skill not just, knowing the right time to start pounding on the botton after th grapple started and hope your faster at it than the other player. I remember many "fun" matches that lasted a long time. Thinking that i was in control and then having my opponent come back and beat me
I'm not exactly sure how you inferred from my post that I am unfamiliar with the Aki system or that the structure I laid out involved button mashing but allow me to elaborate. Button mashing in the Fire Pro grapple system actually made it less likely to "win" the grapple and relied more on timing a single button press. Now i'm not suggesting the firepro system as Im sure no one wants to make a firepro or No Mercy version 2, but an actual new engine. I was just trying to point out the pros and cons of different engines with respect to mental conditioning in relation to visual stimuli.(EX: seeing a grapple animation and to mentally register a fairly finite number of outcomes)
What I meant by a neutral tie up, in reference to the firepro grapple, is a grapple decided by the player with the most precise timing. Imagine a bulls eye, each circle as they approach the center get progressively smaller. Or even better yet, imagine a straight linear timeline reprsenting the 1 second of a neutral tie-up.
In that split second when the tie-up occurs the player who initiates their move closest to the "X" moment would perform the button they pressed. And perhaps by creating an engine where "true X" is so extremely precise, it would reward the more skilled player while still being nearly impossible to truely master consistently. Then you would have other variables such as fatigue, health, ect. interplay with the timing to determine which wrestler performs the manuever. Now a grapple button may still be implemented with this in mind but in terms of visual fluidity it may or may not be a hinderence.
In the Aki engine, while grapples could be reversed, there were only a very finite number of outcomes when visually registering a player creating a tie-up. A player would see a grapple, perform initiated move, or have a move reversed, with reversals having even more finite opitions. And if an animation had visually reached a certain point, the outcome was invariable, that also being the case if a move was reversed.
Whether or not you would want to implement a grapple determined by timing, having a neutral tie-up just expands the number of initial visual occurences possible. Then having various reversals occur throughout a given animation would expand this concept, as well as reversals to a reversal. (although I know because of animations costs this may not a possiblity) So in essence, constantly keeping the mind in doubt to the outcome of a particular visual stimuli, it should result in a more engrossing game.
You raise a valid point. When you watch a good holds match, they typically start the match off with the collar and elbow, and then one wrestler takes the advantage from there, most likely through an arm wrench. The idea intrigues me but I'm not sure how well it will work in execution.
In my opinion the THQ system of grappling and reversals is the best system designed to this date. I LIKE being able to predict what someone is doing if they're lazy about it. That challenges them to be creative with how they initiate grapples. For example using strikes, brief delays, or changing up your routine in order to psych out your opponent.
My friend and I became so good at Smackdown that this sort of tricky gameplay is the only way either of us could ever beat each other. That's the way it should be, in my opinion. It takes the challenge up a level beyond the game itself, until you're really competing with your opponents mind.
It actually got so out of hand before I moved away that we would listen for each others clicks on the controller to judge when to reverse. In order to counter that, we started tapping buttons that had no effect in order to fake out the other person. Tell me that isn't hardcore competition ;)
Very good point about a system that intuitively rewards out-smarting another human opponent, check out my submission system post with regard to timing reversals and transitions. Right now the idea is merely a skeleton but i'll try to find time layout human vs human competition implications later. Im really interested to hear from the PWX team about some of these subjects and whether they are even feasible. I have alot more structures in my head but right now I don't know if any of this is actually beneficial to anyone or just coming off as a bunch of fanboy rants.
[quote][cite] JohnnyR:[/cite]This creates lull between the user and the gameplay as the user already views the outcome and then waits 1 to 2 seconds for the sequence to be completed. In my mind having either wrestler able to perform an offensive maneuver from the same grapple animation, regardless of who initiated it, allows for constant uncertainty(and therefore constant involvement) on the players end as the outcome remains in question until the move is performed(and similar reversal animations perpetuating that suspense throughout the move). Having either wrestler able to perform offensively from the same grapple animation, the grapple button is really inconsequential. "[/quote]
I've campaigned for quick grapples (which avoid this sort of problem), and also for grapple initiations that represent the starting hold of the move(s) to be performed instead of the AKI/spike collar&elbow systems. Although people have agreed with me on these points before, any requests to change the meat+bones of the game (i.e. the grapple system) is unlikely to be granted, by my past expirience.