Hey. I was wondering what everyone would like to see in a submission system. I'd like to see something in which you have some participation. Perhaps you move the stick from left to right to try and break out, and move the stick towards the rope to try and get to it. I figure it would be the best solution, since it would allow the stats do most of it, and still have you feel like you are doing something. Perhaps spining the stick would be how you attempt to reverse it while its locked in.
For the person grappling... To try and counter the person moving towards the ropes you could pull your stick away from the rope. Moving the stick back and fourth would be trying to injure the person(while ruducing the time you can hold it) Spinning the stick in a circle could be when someone is trying to reverse, you can counter it back into a submission.
I know this would be a nightmare to animate and program, but its better than anything I've seen so far. Comments? Additions? Dramatic action moviie noooooos?
of course you talk about a stick, but most people will play this with heir keyboard. p.s. i made a similar post in the old thread about pinning\submission system, very detailed one. if you want to check, i think there's a link a few post down here on this board.
the thing is the people with regular controllers will have the advantage, and who said it has to be a 360 controller... Get one like ps2, or gamecube, or something really out there.
I've always liked the idea of having submissions (in a career type mode) be voluntary. Injuries of course could be involuntary, and would end the match and put one's career on hold for a bit... the idea I think is that you could always try sticking it out longer in a hold, at the risk of getting injured, but more importantly is the idea that you yourself would be forced to give up, instead of just waiting for your character's meter to drain.
Here is a submission/matwork game structure that has been swirling in my head which I think covers most any of the spots you would see in a match. First off, I felt the drawbacks in the popular Firepro and THQAki submission systems were FirePro's lack of prolonged, intense moments and Aki's lack of move transitions which made it feel like watching the game instead of engaged in the action. I think this is a simple but effective way to do things that covers all bases:
First you engage a hold like most games by pressing a button which starts the invisible meter of how long the manuever is engaged. The player on the defense now has three options: 1. button presses to break the hold faster(power out of a hold) 2. button presses to break the hold along with a direction effort towards the rope (which sacrifices some hold breaking effort) 3. a reversal button, when timed more precisely during spots of an animation yeilds better results.
The player applying the hold also has options duing a manuever for constant engaged activity during a match. 1. button presses to wrench a hold and inflict more damage 2. a drag to the center button when an opponent is getting too close to the ropes 3. using the reversal button on offense to transition a hold into connecting hold and resetting the invisible meter prolonging the attack(EX: standing armwrench INTO armwrench to the ground INTO grounded armwrench with leg strattle INTO perhaps a fujiwara armbar, kimura or somthing.)
Now during the offensive transitions it would leave a small window open for the move to be more easily reversed, so the wrestler on defense could take advantage of an attempted transiton and aptly time a reversal. Now it becomes a game of cat and mouse, so an offensive player may not want to risk a reversal and just wrench the arm OR may want to transtion to prolong the attack but would have a higher risk at a reversal in attempting it. This woud also work for the drag button(EX: the player is about to reach to ropes, the offense player attempts to drag to center, but the defensive player anticipates and times a reversal when the drag is attempted)
This structure allows for some chain wrestling simply by players transitioning and reversing one after another, and would also give a dimension to classic mat wrestlers like Lou Thesz who could ground opponents on the canvas with a string of transitions. Just watch a match with this system in mind and it will logically translate into timed reversal/transtion button presses.
The offensive hold transition would start a new meter prolonging a hold but in addition, timing the transition button and a direction could transition into a more intense hold or one that better restricts movement toward the ropes. For example: 1.Kurt Angle's Ankle Lock; TransButton< into Ankle Lock with a leg wrap restricting movement; TransButton^ into a Angle standing up ankle lock animation which inflicts more damage and a higher rate of KO/submission. 2. Standing Taz Mission: TransButtonv Taz Mission grounded with restricting leg wrap.
For programming I don't think this would be too difficult. Just have a couple transition animations for holds and submissions, many of which may already be implemented as isolated manuvers, and have the hold meter reset upon transition. Every hold doesn't even need a transition but with enough in there it will allow for some great looking chains using a fairly simple system.
After that, details could be added such as: 1. increased likelyhood of reversals early in a match to allow for the common chain spots seen in the beggining of most matches. 2. an ability to inflict strikes during certain holds(which the timed reversal system would lend itself nicely to also) EX: user controlled headlock punches, MMA style fighting.
I got a bunch of other game structures that should cover most any wrestling spot translated in to a game but this is all I have time to put to text now. Let me know what you guys think or let me know if im missing somthing(like a spot that wouldnt work with this structure).
Someone please give JohnnyR a contract. Put him on the PWX design team and listen to every word he says. Give him a personal butler and a very comfy chair.
Thanks for the praise fellas. Im curious to know from the programmers if my system has any hangups that would make it hard to implement into game form? Im also curious if you guys already have a different structure designed for the holds and submissions or if only the basic graphics and such have been completed so far.
Please answer this man!! Hire him and then cheese sandwiches all day with some Tang on the side and as was said listen to every word he says. I too had a system exactly like this conjured up years ago but I couldn't into words. The best I could was a comparison between these spots and the Meteor Smash system in Dragon Ball GT Final Bout for the Playstation. That game used a rock, paper, scissors format for it's super combo system, where a player would initiate a combo sequence with special attack (usually a knock-back or knock-up) that would send the opponent into limbo. Both players then had just enough time to time a button-combination in before their opponent (ex: O+X, Sq. + X, Tri. + O, etc.). There were three options Kick combo, Punch Combo, Blast Attack. When an opponent finished their sequence (which end in a knock-back), that gave the chance to follow it up (extending the combo) or for the opponent to start their sequence.
Now, that I look back on it. It wasn't that great, but then again my mind is always looking for "This would wortk great in a wrestling game". Sometimes, it doesn't sit too well.
Anyway, Dave... Hire this man, or I shall make you humble!!!
Johnny, awesome post. We want to do something exactly like you described and chain stronger submission positions from weaker ones depending on player input, stats, and attributes. We're at a pretty early stage though (getting seriously owned by the realities of making a wrestling game that doesn't completely suck) and so far our submission system is basic. Very basic. Our first goal is to get the submission system to a solid Aki-Spike level of functionality (complete with tap out animations) and then build it out from there along the same lines you were thinking.
Designing a submission system isn't the hard part. Making it work before your studio goes broke is the hard part! Every animation takes between $50-$100 worth of labor to look good, give or take. A basic submission is composed of at least eight animations:
1-attacker initiate 2-defender initiate 3-attacker loop 4-defender loop 5-attacker release 6-defender release 7-attacker tap out 8-defender tap out
So I'm looking at roughly $800 per basic submission depending on the complexity of the move. If I'm going to chain a second submission to the first one it will cost me at least another $800 and thats not including possible reversals. Want reversals for every weight class and fighting style? Ouch, that could add up to $3000 per submission easily.
Feel my pain? Now I know why there are hundreds of taunts in No Mercy and only a handful of submissions...
Thanks for taking the time reply Dave. I planned on posting more game structures but in light of this info my mind will go in a different direction.
Now I'am not too familiar with the nuts and bolts of programming of a game(my background is more in psychology and game theory) so I dont know if some of these ideas are even plausable. But is it possible to borrow animations from previously created games as a short-cut to then tweak into your own animations? Also refering back to my initial post, would creating transition and reversal animations that connect to exisiting animations already in your database still have the same monetary implications? (not entirely new submission animations but small connectors to two pre-existing moves) My other question is if the mounting studio costs are from paying animators or from actually paying to run all the incedentals like rent, software and such.(just ignore if you dont want to get into the business end of it)
I'm not sure if you guys are indeed going the route with an initial demo to try to create some buzz, and garner some some investment $$$. But if you did plan on eventually implementing a system like the structure I suggested, perhaps focus on creating the full system of animations for just two characters and have your full working system on your demo just for the one match. Afterwards, expanding to more animations to have the full gamut of matches once the studio is more financially sound.
I also have some ideas for commericial viability and implementations to attract those who don't appreciate our geeked wrestling game structures. If you're interested lmk. I look foward to hearing your thoughts.
(Read the last paragraph if you cant bare it all...)
Johnny, I like your idea, its very similar in mine in theory. I'm just not liing button presses. I'd like some finesse to the system. I've found most people that have put imput in are very very anti-button mashing. Maybe something between our two ideas would appeal to me the most. I do like your idea for the transistions, but could I add that I'd like to see a reversal have the opponent transition into another grapple sometimes(Best reversal timing), and break on the rest, and to make it progressively harder to reverse as the chain goes on. I thought of a way to lessen the blow of johnnys idea.
1-attacker initiate, 2-defender initiate, 3-attacker loop, 4-defender loop, 5-attacker release, 6-defender release, 7-attacker tap out, 8-defender tap out, 9-attacker reversal, 10-defender reversal, 11-attacker toward rope, 12-defender toward rope, 13-attacker away from rope, 14-defender away from rope $700-$1400, as opposed to $400-$800(Daves system in place.)
Now, lets say you have 50 submissions in the game, thats a legitimate amount by any standard... $35,000-$70,000 as opposed to $20,000-$40,000(Daves system in place).
Now, there is one function thrown out there, and thats chaining them together...
Chaining 50 submissions to 50 submissions in technicality, accounding to daves estimate would cost a sickening $125,000 to $250,000. Until you take into considerations would your doing. What makes these animations much cheaper is that they dont need to loop like most of the others, and they are extremely short. So however balsy, I'm going to need to say these would be like 25 a piece... They are just what gets 4-defender loop to 1-attacker initiate, and 3-attacker loop to 2-defender initiate. You would also elimitate the reversal loop for both. This would make it look like this...
1-attacker initiate, 2-defender initiate, 3-attacker loop, 4-defender loop, 5-attacker release, 6-defender release, 7-attacker tap out, 8-defender tap out, 9-attacker toward rope, 10-defender toward rope, 11-attacker away from rope, 12-defender away from rope $600-$1200 as opposed to $700-$1400(No chains system),and to $400-$800(Daves system in place.)
These reversals would total(under my unproffesional estimates...) $31,250 -$62,500 extra tacked onto $30,000-$60,000. In total it would double the submission systems price... That isnt ridiculous. Also, I'm sure a bunch could actually be partially or mostly recycled, seeing as they are short clips linking submissions, much of them falling into the same families... Making my estimate of doubling the subission systems cost more realistic... It's pretty solid math I think. This is mainly to dave, but please respond, everyone who can get through, lol!
I think what Dave was trying to say was that each animation takes roughly X amount of man hours which translates into a certain amount of monetary costs, so I don't think you can really estimate that precisely the implementation of a new system. The potential for unforseen hickups and implentation problems along the way would probably make it hard to get a prdictable figure.
One thing that did come to mind was the attacker tap out animation. Is it really necessary? In my mind a wrestler's mannerisms while applying a hold really don't change as the victim taps. To suspend disbelief for a second that wrestling is actually a work, Bret Hart doesn't know when his opponent is about to tap out. So his physical demeanor should remain constant. Even in accepting that it is a work, a wrestler doesn't know the precise moment that the other guys is about to tap. So why change the attackers animation as the defender is giving up? I know that the THQ/Aki engine implemented this kind of animation but I think it detracted from the overall realism of a submission, and delayed shock of a tap out. Now perhaps implementing an exagerrated wrench during a hold would be a plus, but it shouldnt necessarily be tied to the exact moment a wrestler taps. Unless the attacker tap out animation is some sort of celebration animation maybe the need for 1/8th of every submission animation could be eliminated?
i don't know JohnnyR, I thought that it was very gratifying when you would see your wrestler do that one last wrench on his opponents arm as he tapped out. I thought it made a big difference in the Def Jam FFNY game as well. To me this is how the attacker knew the precise moment when the defender was tapping because of the "no resitance" feeling he got when the defender was no longer fighting back
[quote][cite] JohnnyR:[/cite]I think what Dave was trying to say was that each animation takes roughly X amount of man hours which translates into a certain amount of monetary costs, so I don't think you can really estimate that precisely the implementation of a new system. The potential for unforseen hickups and implentation problems along the way would probably make it hard to get a prdictable figure.
One thing that did come to mind was the attacker tap out animation. Is it really necessary? In my mind a wrestler's mannerisms while applying a hold really don't change as the victim taps. To suspend disbelief for a second that wrestling is actually a work, Bret Hart doesn't know when his opponent is about to tap out. So his physical demeanor should remain constant. Even in accepting that it is a work, a wrestler doesn't know the precise moment that the other guys is about to tap. So why change the attackers animation as the defender is giving up? I know that the THQ/Aki engine implemented this kind of animation but I think it detracted from the overall realism of a submission, and delayed shock of a tap out. Now perhaps implementing an exagerrated wrench during a hold would be a plus, but it shouldnt necessarily be tied to the exact moment a wrestler taps. Unless the attacker tap out animation is some sort of celebration animation maybe the need for 1/8th of every submission animation could be eliminated?[/quote]
And either way there's still a release animation that may be marginally different to that when there isn't a tapout.
Much as I'm impressed by the sound of JohnnyR's spiel, it is an idea thats been floating on both incarnations of the old boards for a while, and one that I'm not a huge fan of. Firstly its not wholly original, its very similar to the game mechanics of the PS2 UFC games, which were good for a while but soon got boring. And secondly, the Taz and Kurt Angle examples you used are pretty much the only two (certainly American, don't know enough about Japan) wrestlers who've used 'super' versions of their respective finishers. Which other submission wrestlers would this system benefit? I don't want my Bret Hart to realise his sharpshooter isn't doing the job and falling back into a deathlock, its his finisher. Ditto Benoit, Jericho, Regal, Malenko, Danielson etc. Its something that'd look very nice but something I really don't see as an essential. Most submissionists work the body part before hitting a signature submission, not use a rolling submission combo.
[quote][cite] killerb:[/cite]i don't know JohnnyR, I thought that it was very gratifying when you would see your wrestler do that one last wrench on his opponents arm as he tapped out. I thought it made a big difference in the Def Jam FFNY game as well. To me this is how the attacker knew the precise moment when the defender was tapping because of the "no resitance" feeling he got when the defender was no longer fighting back[/quote]
I guess in my mind its the difference between translating a wrestling match into a video game to translating a video game into a wrestling engine. In watching a match I would view the psychology of a tap out as a "mental" break where the wrestler just can't take it anymore and quits as opposed to a physical breakdown where their muscles cant resist the hold anymore. Just watch a various tap outs to submissions in matches. More importantly I view it as adding realism while saving precious animation time/money.
That being said, the same exaggerated wrench animation could be present(perhaps when a defender is very weak or an attacker is initiating the wrench button) during a hold. I just don't think it should be tied to the tap out. Also varying the intervals of a loop during a hold I think would add to realism, instead of seeing a wrestler wrench back every second like watching a seesaw.
On a side note I think it would be cool to see "no loop" defender animation where the referee checks a passed out fighter and rings the bell. Perhaps initiated by, very low health and a high "no quitting" attribute. And possibly have the defender vary in and out of "loop", "no loop" animation when theyre near death.
[quote][cite] Colly:[/cite]And either way there's still a release animation that may be marginally different to that when there isn't a tapout.
Much as I'm impressed by the sound of JohnnyR's spiel, it is an idea thats been floating on both incarnations of the old boards for a while, and one that I'm not a huge fan of. Firstly its not wholly original, its very similar to the game mechanics of the PS2 UFC games, which were good for a while but soon got boring. And secondly, the Taz and Kurt Angle examples you used are pretty much the only two (certainly American, don't know enough about Japan) wrestlers who've used 'super' versions of their respective finishers. Which other submission wrestlers would this system benefit? I don't want my Bret Hart to realise his sharpshooter isn't doing the job and falling back into a deathlock, its his finisher. Ditto Benoit, Jericho, Regal, Malenko, Danielson etc. Its something that'd look very nice but something I really don't see as an essential. Most submissionists work the body part before hitting a signature submission, not use a rolling submission combo.[/quote]
The argument that my structure isn't a good system because it isn't wholly original doesn't really have legs(In the history of humankind how many ideas are wholly original?). Ideas in this realm are either good or not because of their fuctionality, they need no prerequisites. While im not familiar with the UFC system just saying it got boring with reference to the structure I presented doesn't really point out its flaws, or help create a good submission structure.
Now of course not every move needs a more intense transition and some moves don't need any transitions at all. A simple designation as a signature submission could sew up things like making a move more intense or harder to break from. Ideally, I would like to implement a fully customizable attribute system for each move, but i'll save that for another post. The point of the system is to give interactive fluid sequences to the spots you would see in any given match. So if certain moves have different variations, the structure makes it possible to implement them seamlessly, without having to make them separate moves and look nothing like the actual spot. I think the true litmus test for a game would be while watching any random real match, could the game translate every occurence functionally, logically, and with variable implications. Until that is done I dont think the a game structure is fully complete.
As for some more classic player specific spots in relation to the structure, here are a couple off the top of my head:
1. Chris Jericho: Standing crab Lion Tamer, Transition^ a more intense Classic inverted Lion Tamer with Jericho on one knee 2. Lance Storm: 1/2 Crab, transition^ a more intense standing 1/2 crab 3. Sabu: Camel Clutch, Transition^ a more intense camel clutch with opponents arms trapped on his knees. 4. Classic Sleeper Hold, Transition> sleeper while riding your opponents back, Transitionv sleeper to the ground 5. and my personal favorite Ric Flair: Figure-Four, Transition< near the ropes for a more intense illegal figure-four while holding on the ropes for leverage.
Just watch any match the potential transtions are infinite you just have to think about it.
Well, if you watch wrestlers with a signature submission, you can note that there are generally two stages anyway. Just like what Johnny said before.
If a stamina feature is implemented into the submission system you can have it so there are moments of intense pressure in the hold. Like when Benoit would lock on the crossface. If the guy wasn't tapping, he'd yank back on it extra hard until he did. Same thing with Bret's Sharpshooter.
I think the really important thing is to not allow any button pressing while a submission is happening to over rule the previous events of a match. If Ive drop kicked someones knee twenty times, put them in four knee bars and do a fivth in the middle of the ring, I don't want the outcome to be decided just because of a mini game. I think the game should reward decision making if anything. Okay, I'm in a lion tamer, oh my back hurts. Should I spend energy getting out of it, or do I try and get to the ropes? Do I put up with it till this monkey on my back gets tired? Do I rally crowd support? Or do I risk getting hurt really bad and try and reverse it into an offensive move of my own? I think the ideal submission system would be one that gives both players intuitively controlled choices each with there own pros and cons, but at the same time only adds to the other factors taking place in the match (momentum, fatigue, injury).
I think the "mini game" as you say is okay, you just need for it to be fairly easy if you havent got any damage to that body part and gradually get harder the more injured that body part gets. Eventually it should be impossible. The thing is, if it all comes down to decision making it rules out the possibility of making someone tap regardless of whether you've "worked on that area". This is esp. important for sleeper holds like the Tazmission and the rear naked choke. Also, the Ankle lock - neither Kurt nor Ken used to work over their opponents ankles throughout the match nor do they always use the ankle lock over and over. If i hit an ankle lock out of nowhere there should be a possibility i can win with that move.
Of course. The thing is, the more likely a move is to result in a submission, the less likely an opponent is to let it get put on them. I think that all submission moves should be able to be blocked before there "locked in." Lets say Krow tried to put my character in an ankle lock early in a match. First, if I timed a reversal right I could pull my leg away from him before I got put in the move. I think that type of system would make the match flow better. If Krow kept trying to put me in an ankle lock, and I kept wiggling out of it before it was locked in, it would look more realistic, keep the flow of the match going, and make it a big deal when he locked the ankle lock in. When ever he did land the move, the events of the match would have to play in. Lets say he didn't work my ankle. The further into the match it was the less energy Id have to escape. At the same time, if he locked the move in while I was fairly rested and he was fatigued, Id have a better chance of reversing the ankle lock into an offensive move of my own.
I think its important for the flow of the match, and for the simulation look of the game, that no extra images pop up onto the screen explaining the events of a submission mini game. I'm not saying thats a bad thing but I think its more of a WWE arcade type thing. So without any thing explaining a mini game, if you do get put into a submission then if you haven't mastered the controls you'd be at a serious, match losing disadvantage. Problem there is people who are good at that one aspect of the game could make it hard for other players to compete, and it could make certain submission styled wrestlers unbalanced, and it could make learning the game very frustrating. With the simpler submission system I'm recommending if your put into a submission your decisions while in the hold can affect the outcome of the match, but at the same time anything you do will have a pro and con and at the same time not seal your fate in by itself. I think that will make the game more intuitive and better balanced.
At the same time I think its important for people to decide and CAW if there particularly good at a submission. i dont want Krows CAW who employs an ankle lock to beat my wrestler because he employs arm bars.
Sounds good - i like the not locking the move on part. I much prefer when wrestlers evade a major submission rather than sit in it for half an hour and not tap out - evasion makes the move seem strong, sitting in it for ages makes it weak. Also, I do hate that in videogames wrestles often just let go of subs after a few seconds - if someone didnt escape and you havent transitioned into another move there seems to be no need to just release the move.